Structural Dissociation?

[shimmerz]

However I find the additional layers of more EPs and even of extra ANPs a bit pointless. That just seems like any other description of Dissociative conditions, and some of the comments I've come across in various places sound like people who don't have a Dissociative condition jumping up and down and trying to get one through this construct. But I suspect I'm not really understanding.

What else should I read?

So sorry @stenni , you kind of got forgotten in all of this.

Yes, there is some discussion on David Baldwin's page.
http://www.trauma-pages.com/a/vdhart-2000.php
You can actually do a search on his site for Structural Dissociation and find more information. It is a bit technical and hard to follow at times.

There is also this wiki about Distinct States which is a bit easier of a read
Link Removed

Lots of stuff out there but I would recommend these first. There are lots of links at the beginning of this thread as well. More than enough to overwhelm :dead:

As far as your question about more than one EP and ANP - the more than one ANP is used to define a person who has DID. This is an important presentation of Dissociative Disorders as the way to integration is more complex than with other forms of dissociation. I think that determining how many EP's have been created in the system as well is important (DID or not) because those EP's carry a piece of the trauma that needs to be processed with the guidance of a therapist in order to get their patient to a 'healed self'.

Let us know if you have further questions.

 

[shimmerz]

I just discovered my profile page.

You are so cute! :joyful::hug::roflmao::laugh::inlove:

 

[sun seeker]

I doubt you missed me

We did too!
:hug::hug::hug:

 

[shimmerz]

Real English language site on SD. I like it. Asks relevant questions, in easy to read format. Hope it helps.

http://www.complex-trauma.eu/

 

[shimmerz]

I just read another posting about Inner Child (IC) stuff, which really I could never relate to in therapy. The SD model was brought up in this posting as a more 'adult way' of processing. There was an interesting post that spoke about not being able to relate to IC because they felt they didn't have a childhood. This reasoning so calls to me. No, I did not have a childhood. I missed it all. How can my IC be related to as a child if she was robbed of that? I thought it was interesting.

 

[shimmerz]

Trauma Bonding
The Six Steps to Inner Bonding

The Core Self

 

[Chava]

Jumping in randomly here, sorry....

I don't know if I'm "integrating" stuff or trying to somehow solve ancient attachment stuff. Basically, I don't know if I have an EP that connects well to others and feels comforted by other people. I worry I just don't have it in me to form meaningful relationships. It's painful and lonely but like I don't care...I just don't connect. Feels like I want to (like I'm not a sociopath), but any part shares a common extreme need for self-protection that does not involve others. So even trying to connect is very weird and painful. I can never satisfy my ridiculous safety needs enough to go the extra step and form a caring connection. It just isn't natural.

What I know: I have a 4-year-oldish angry EP (or part of myself, not sure if I want more labels, but the concept is somewhat helpful). This little one didn't know the words "f*ck everyone!" at the time, but that's about how she felt. She is a good artist but she prefers angry scribbling. Feels like the part of me that had no problem telling off a former boss. My more professional self is NOT like this. But I was way stressed out and detached and didn't give a shit. Gets confusing because I use all kinds of sneaky executive function and stand up for decent principles. But I scared myself in how I could become like a junkyard dog and have no fear of what my boss thought of me.

I have a 0-2-year-old EP that is very shutdown. I won't even go into it. Very powerless and she hijacks the majority of my being sometimes, so I feel very immobilized and powerless, and sometimes totally vacant. This littlest one does not feel comfortable anywhere and is afraid of everyone. She's stuck in a void. She also doesn't really sense my therapist as real...she's just very very detached and trapped in a little bubble.

The one littler part that feels helpful is the spiritual one that could connect to nature quite deeply. And later music. Through both there is still a sense of connection to the world, and to others in a sort of distanced way (like connected to emotion and to "humanity" through music). In both I felt connected to my self. But these good feelings don't involve connections to others. I'm nurturing these parts though because they at least help me feel more okay, even if alone.

If I try to recall memories of feeling happy around others, connected to them, and loved, they are really spotty. Like a few memories of a grandparent. Not strong enough to feel like part of me.

Can I build myself a new EP somehow? I guess that's the question.

 

[shimmerz]

The one littler part that feels helpful is the spiritual one that could connect to nature quite deeply

@Chava, thank you for this. You reminded me of a part of mine. I am not certain she is an EP, but more a piece of my SELF that shines through. As a child I used to wander in ravines all day. I was so connected to this. I have been at a loss as to what to do with myself these days, and you reminded me of a place that I can nurture this part of me. I would like my SELF to grow and my EP's to have a place to be that is grounded.

Can I build myself a new EP somehow?

I think the EP's are born out of dysfunction (just my take), so I don't want to build that up. I want, instead, to find and nurture the SELF that I was born with. The one who appreciates just 'being'. Talk to my EP's while I am in that SELF place to allow them to trust again.

What type of EP are you wanting to build? What would this EP be for you?

 

[Chava]

Okay, so maybe an EP that connects to others. Or just my "self". I know that was sort of a confusing post. All I have to integrate are loners, including my spiritual part or shred of "self"....all self-protective and isolating or just happy hermits. I know I just have to put consistent effort into connecting with others but it's like I come from entirely wrong angels. People know when you don't actually want any connection (so, like I think I do, but I fail at eye contact or other signs of genuine interest).

So anyway, some part that I could nurture that would help me just a little more in the human world. It makes me really sad that I lost this or didn't really have it. I do care about people but there is so much more comfort in isolating myself. I get invited to some group things and do show up if it's not a huge group or crowded bar. But I'm not the kind of person most people want to get to know more. I'm weird, smart and not interested in normal social conventions, and also very poor at the basic attachment behavior 95% of the time (the eye contact, mirroring, etc).

It's interesting though, the very few good friends I have had through life have been smart and eccentric, with their own trauma backgrounds. It's like we clicked on some level of sensitivity and intensity right away. I do think if I can ever get my shit together and move to a bigger city, I'd feel more connected in bigger AA groups (and more choices of groups) because I relate much easier to these people too. And in AA, it's already a given that you have some issues...so you'd bypassed all kinds of social and trust things I don't do well with (like masking all my struggles, appearing aloof and unaffected by life). I wouldn't say I have close friends in AA now (very rural, small groups), but I go to meetings regularly and it does feel good to be with others. I feel more at ease and do better with things like eye contact and listening.

Also, I have done some fun, very-literal mirroring in therapy and should maybe ask to do that again (I mirror what my therapist does for a bit, then she follows me...little movements, gestures). I suppose that's one way to work on very basic attachment stuff that was bypassed and maybe incorporate new experience into "self"? (my littlest part did not have good connection, vocal or body mirroring...I honestly don't even know how I know English. But I had early tutoring in school).

Well, another post that ended up about three paragraphs longer than intended. It's helpful to think about, conceptualize some of this in different ways (vs the "I'm fundamentally f*cked up" (or broken beyond repair) assessment of things.

 

[shimmerz]

Haven't forgotten about you Chava. Just following up on your fMRI reference in the other dissociation posting. I found this which shows without a shadow of a doubt that DID is identifiable in scans and that it cannot be replicated with 'healthy participants' in the study. It also mentions some stuff about SD, parts, and recovered memories. I wasn't sure where to put it so I felt it was best to put the link here.

DID involves dissociative part-dependent resting-state differences. Compared to ANP, EP activated brain structures involved in self-referencing and sensorimotor actions more. Actors had different perfusion patterns compared to genuine ANP and EP. Comparisons of neural activity for individuals with DID and non-DID simulating controls suggest that the resting-state features of ANP and EP in DID are not due to imagination. The findings are consistent with TSDP and inconsistent with the idea that DID is caused by suggestion, fantasy proneness, and role-playing.

There is slightly easier reading in the article under the graph.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0098795

 

[Chava]

This is interesting stuff. Thanks @shimmerz .

A week or so ago when I was sick I dropped back into feeling really immobilized. My adult self knew on some level that I was capable of doing something but NOTHING felt right. I felt very trapped and like I had to find help for myself right there in the immobilized place. Recordings of singing bowls helped...like it activated something useful. From there I could start doing normal things like laundry. I could maybe assume that in the state I was in, even if a little part of me knew better, many parts of my mind were offline in response to certain body sensations. So forcing myself to act like a normal adult was not really the answer because simply making lunch would have felt like climbing a mountain. But through using that little bit of adult mind (higher level awareness) I got myself access to singing bowls and just let them work on my internally a bit...definitely something I could access from the shutdown place.

It would make sense that different EPs would have activation in different parts of the brain. The high SNS activation response to trauma (like sweating, arousal, increased heart rate, etc) lights up certain areas whereas much of the left hemisphere goes offline. I have some of that but my set point seems to be more towards shutdown.

Unfortunately we can't all get brain scans of all these parts. But I hope advances in neuroscience of trauma helps therapists help us...and helps us understand ourselves better. It helps me a lot to think of all of it as a creative challenge....like the old patterns obviously don't work. But neither do obvious adult-responses. I have to sort of go down to the level of brain function. So when shutdown, sound actually works...it's the one thing I can still access (and one thing I had access to likely pre-trauma since it is developing very well before we are even born...and it does have some influence on activating me a bit in a really safe way.

 

[shimmerz]

Smart @Chava, really smart. I love singing bowls.

I see a bunch of good things out of this. First, lots of us damn ourselves for faking, I think. Because it feels so surreal. The fact that the fMRI shows the brain shuts down (as mentioned in other posting) also allows us to feel better about why we can't function (as you said, making lunch is too much) and also, the sound part that you referred to with the emphasis on our fetal self having that sense online so it makes sense that a soothing sound may well help us get ourselves engaged again.

If nothing else, this early fMRI information may well have some of us take it easier on ourselves as we work through and heal. :hug: