trauma programs more trauma, and resolving it with ego dissolution

[Sideways]

What does our contemporary culture really know?

This is an interesting comment at the end of a thread that I don’t really relate to at all.

Definitely you have a very strong opinion about your life to date being pretty shit, and that 7 years of hard work should have yielded better results.

Those are opinions. Not facts. Have there been shitty events in your life? Sure. Has trauma “followed you round”? Depends on what you’re focusing on (based on previous threads, contemporary culture has strongly influenced our concept of the good life, no?). Should there be much better results after 7 years of hard work? Well, I’ve been at the recovery thing full time for over a decade and still struggle with suicidal ideation.

So, the foundations of your hypothesis here? Aren’t facts. They’re your subjective assessment.

Maybe the big change comes not when you achieve some change to ego states or trauma curses or whatever. Maybe the big change comes when your perspective starts to shift...?

ETA I was 2 minds whether to include this, because it is probably going to come off as me being a judgmental bitch. I don’t have much to go on, please accept that this comment is made with the very best of intentions and it’s totally none of my business...but...

This thread sounds a lot less like the musings of a scientist, and a lot more like someone who lay have fallen off the wagon. Because linking trauma patterns with multiple dimensions streaming through black holes? Makes no logical sense.

Hope you’re okay. Hope I’m just completely way off. Because I’m rooting for you and your sobriety, I truly am.

 

[maryiscontrary]

This is an interesting comment at the end of a thread that I don’t really relate to at all.

Definitely you have a very strong opinion about your life to date being pretty shit, and that 7 years of hard work should have yielded better results.

Those are opinions. Not facts. Have there been shitty events in your life? Sure. Has trauma “followed you round”? Depends on what you’re focusing on (based on previous threads, contemporary culture has strongly influenced our concept of the good life, no?). Should there be much better results after 7 years of hard work? Well, I’ve been at the recovery thing full time for over a decade and still struggle with suicidal ideation.

So, the foundations of your hypothesis here? Aren’t facts. They’re your subjective assessment.

Maybe the big change comes not when you achieve some change to ego states or trauma curses or whatever. Maybe the big change comes when your perspective starts to shift...?

ETA I was 2 minds whether to include this, because it is probably going to come off as me being a judgmental bitch. I don’t have much to go on, please accept that this comment is made with the very best of intentions and it’s totally none of my business...but...

This thread sounds a lot less like the musings of a scientist, and a lot more like someone who lay have fallen off the wagon. Because linking trauma patterns with multiple dimensions streaming through black holes? Makes no logical sense.

Hope you’re okay. Hope I’m just completely way off. Because I’m rooting for you and your sobriety, I truly am.

oh no, I am probably the most sober I've ever been in my life. And I thank you for your comment.
I think what you might have missed is that we can reprogram our own reality. some people may call this turning things over to God, or Allah, or whomever. When Things become unmanageable, and you've worked yourself into a knot, sometimes the solution is it not within conscious reach.
Since we are very likely living in some sort of simulated Matrix, and black holes are very likely driving the computation of this simulated reality, I choose to turn my unmanageable life that doesn't seem to make sense, with the trauma that usually follows people who have endured unmanageable situations to whatever this simulated reality is. I hope this makes more sense.
Oh, compared to 7 years ago, I am worlds better. But as I explained in other threads, clean living alone is not enough to overcome the curse of trauma. it is not enough to overcome the torturous repetitive thinking. It goes a long way.

so I am choosing to throw out Decades of operant and classical conditioning, and part of that had been accomplished, but I was pissed off that I was still screwed up after all this work. for me, it's time to just say screw it and to just dissolve my ego and basically just do a hard reset.
I knew this was happening when I was able to just drop my last addictions several weeks ago without any second thought. I literally have no desire, after lifelong cravings. My addiction to cannabis, sugar, and chocolate were very much entrenched in my personality. And they just vanished overnight. So something dissolved. I am working my 12 steps very diligently, and I had recently had some monster EMDR sessions as well. Maybe I just got damn sick of being mentally sick.
So no , I'm definitely off any wagon. I'm just trying to make sense of these Monumental changes. Reprogramming The Matrix? Who knows. Thanks again! Sorry for the typos as I am voice dictating.

Keep in mind those practices are both highly controlled, as to settings, and contextual, to their cultural context.

You cannot full take a method for something and apply it elsewhere as an all cure.



I would reevaluate why you take any scores for reality.

For all I know this is the last time we are talking.
I have no surefire way of knowing, & neither does that score.

Besides, by the same rationale, no need to kill anything, for time did it for you, already. You are different today than yesterday. Will be different the moment you finish reading this post. Will be different the moment you make dinner. Will be different tomorrow. Quite naturally.

I think that maybe we maybe misunderstanding each other. The ego is just an Illusion, and all of our lifelong conditioning of trauma, which is facilitated by improper activation of the autonomic nervous system over a lifetime, becomes ingrained within our ego. Just like Pavlov's dog with classical and operant conditioning
now that I am pretty much completely addiction free for the first time in my life, I realized that I've already set forth killing this damn toxic illusionary ego.
I think for me, maintaining this conditioning will statistically shorten my life, and Propel the re-emergence of more addictions in order to numb the agony.
However Ronin, if I pay attention to the exact present moment, I realize that life is actually pretty good. when I'm hit with a flashback, this is a dissociative response based on terrible s*** in the past. The past is smothering out what actually could be a pretty nice day in the present.
I say this as a person who has a terrible problem with dissociation, and how it is robbing me of Beautiful Moments and precious time.
I'm damn sick of it. I'm done with it. And I am clear-headed enough, even with my brain problems, to just be done with the damn thing. Do not think of myself as a victim anymore. If anything, just enjoy and savor the moment and not let the horrible past destroy it.
It took a long long time to get to this point. I don't need a false self anymore. I hope this helps. Again I apologize for the typos, I am voice dictating. Big hugs and thank you

Yes it does. . . Stress. . .

Check out the book The Body Keeps the Score

Oh I'm very well aware of Bessel Van de Kolk's work. Can you tell me what the exact definition of stress is?
allow me to help, if I don't appear too obnoxious. Stress is the rate of adjustment the cell, tissues, organs, organ systems, the whole organism, as well as groups of organisms undergo in order to adapt to various rates of adjustment. This adjustment can be internal or an external environment.
stress is like pornography, you know it when you see it, but it's very difficult to put words to.

The person I am was not taken away. By learning to 'get out of my own way' to simplify things, helped on this healing journey. It helped me to understand that my brain had been changed from trauma. It helped me to understand and accept that healing was going to take a long long while.

No magic cures or time travel for me. It's been hard. Very hard. And still is sometimes. It's just more simple. I accepted it was going to take time and hard work. And I did hit the rabbit hole. Many times.

Sorry, should not have posted. I don't speak well enough to be involved in this conversation.

I am so glad that you posted! Thank you for joining this conversation. Getting rid of the ego is getting rid of layers and layers and layers of classical conditioning. I am so happy for your recovery, you got a big piece of the puzzle figured it out that a lot of folks struggle with!

 

[Kubash16]

Ego, Superego, and Id Explained

The ego is not an illusion. . . You can’t kill or otherwise dissolve a necessary part of you and your consciousness.

Stress causes changes in the body that contributes to the diseases and other crappy health that happens. When your body is constantly carrying the stress of trauma without being released and worked through, it causes the body to be even more worn down and reduces the immune system as well as the functioning of every other system.

 

[somerandomguy]

@maryiscontrary - if you are convinced your ego is what's wrong with you, may I suggest taking a megadose of LSD? Like an extra super megadose, followed by another and another and another. That should result in the ego death you require.

 

[maryiscontrary]

You sound amazing! I wish I knew you in read L life! Your story sounded very much similar to mine Minus the aspie. I also did a lot teaching myself about how to recovery or why or how therapy works... I accepted my trauma but I made my life mission how does recovery work. With extreme open mindedness. I feel you reached a conundrum. The ego. The thing is ego is actually good for us. You know when a child feels she must tell every thing to momandad... Until the child grows her ego and learns mom and dad cannt see her mind and you can hide your thoughts. Imagine when a child gets that development phase damaged. Compound that with adulthood.... It is no longer you think people can see your mind But it becomes you or the person is always second to "other". The child truly never developed a healthy ego. Either you are forever trying to protect it or kill it. It is polarized. A really healthier person with a good enough parenting, this phase is not so sore or compromised. They are more balanced and may not even be able to explain why they are at peace. This is my take. You cannt kill something you did not master yet. You have to develop it first and then killing us not an option but awareness. Killing it is what your parents did to it. How are you different? Again the other perspective in you is stronger. Please Google if you have not allready, few great articles about ego integration and meditation. Good luck sometimes trying to kill the ego takes you to the development of the ego...and your whole reference point changes in fundamental way and amazing way. In others killi g the ego is the basic template of suicide. I feel with the amount of resilience and motivation you showed, you are the first. Holding you in my heart. If any of my thoughts are confusing I am sorry.

You are so sweet! Thank you for your very nice words! You may have explained it better than me.

In Buddhism there is a term called dukkah. I believe the direct translation means an axle that is not exactly fitted within the wheel. at first oh, it's really no big deal, but as the vehicle speeds ahead, it really manifests into a big shitstorm. Kind of like having a small pebble in your shoe. No biggie, but after a while you have a massive freaking wound.
Well, after decades of this bloody dukkah, what else can you do but just do a hard reset? This is how the indigenous explained it to me. You just let it all go, and start over again. Again thank you so much for your comment.

 

[maryiscontrary]

Stress causes changes in the body that contributes to the diseases and other crappy health that happens. When your body is constantly carrying the stress of trauma without being released and worked through, it causes the body to be even more worn down and reduces the immune system as well as the functioning of every other system.

You've told me what stress does, so we see the effects oh, but you haven't told me what stress is. Again I will refer to the obscene pornography reference, difficult to Define, but we know it when we see it or feel it! Thanks again for your thoughts!

@maryiscontrary - if you are convinced your ego is what's wrong with you, may I suggest taking a megadose of LSD? Like an extra super megadose, followed by another and another and another. That should result in the ego death you require.

That is really funny! I personally do not need LSD, although I have had my fair share of Ayahuasca and San Pedro in the past. I personally would be careful with the synthetics, just don't know the long-term effects of heavy use of those. Just my opinion!

... From someone who believes a lot of cray juice...

Trauma being a curse? Nah.
Because trauma is man made. Or, you know, weather made. Or just accidental. Or, or, or. Nothing that has unexplainable attached as a label.
Vulnerability to trauma & other factors is also something that can be studied from many interesting angles... that do not require any sort of other dimensions explanations, to work.

The time someone tells me the ONLY solution to something is killing, I tend to run for the hills. .)
That might be true only if we are talking serial killers & terrorists.
But recovery? Killing literally who you are...? That sounds like trouble ahead, not assistive.

LOL, can you explain to me what cray juice is??? the ego is classically conditioned, and it may or may not include s*** trauma, which is basically abuse of our autonomic nervous system. if the damn thing is like a worn-out avatar, I say freaking get rid of it if it's possible! But still... I'm dying to know what crazy juice is....

 

[Kubash16]

You've told me what stress does, so we see the effects oh, but you haven't told me what stress is. Again I will refer to the obscene pornography reference, difficult to Define, but we know it when we see it or feel it! Thanks again for your thoughts!

I’m not understanding you at all then. You wanted to know how ACE works. I’ve explained it to you. Early childhood trauma creates significant stress in the body as well as changes in the brain. Both of those together create the perfect storm for further trauma and wearing down of the body. Your ego has literally nothing to do with it, neither does black holes, or other dimensions. But I’m out, I’ve tried.

Btw, pretty SRG was being sarcastic. . .

 

[maryiscontrary]

I’m not understanding you at all then. You wanted to know how ACE works. I’ve explained it to you. Early childhood trauma creates significant stress in the body as well as changes in the brain. Both of those together create the perfect storm for further trauma and wearing down of the body. Your ego has literally nothing to do with it, neither does black holes, or other dimensions. But I’m out, I’ve tried.

Btw, pretty SRG was being sarcastic. . .

I am hearing you, you're telling me the effects of stress. But can you tell me the actual definition of stress? And damn straight the effects of stress can be classically conditioned into the ego. Why else are we here identifying ourselves as victims of C PTSD? I came here originally five or six years ago because I totally identified as a victim of trauma and PTSD? By definition, that is my ego. But I still don't see a definition of stress... :-)

let me try to Define this again. Stress is the rate of adjustment you undergo in order to adapt to demands in either your internal or external environment. So when those demands overwhelm your autonomic nervous system, adaptation cannot occur. Thus the shity effects of s*** trauma. but stress in it as itself is probably some sort of quantum mechanical force that we haven't fully elucidated yet.

 

[TruthSeeker]

The person I am was not taken away. By learning to 'get out of my own way' to simplify things, helped on this healing journey. It helped me to understand that my brain had been changed from trauma. It helped me to understand and accept that healing was going to take a long long while.

No magic cures or time travel for me. It's been hard. Very hard. And still is sometimes. It's just more simple. I accepted it was going to take time and hard work. And I did hit the rabbit hole. Many times.

Sorry, should not have posted. I don't speak well enough to be involved in this conversation.

@ladee Yes, you most certainly do-I value your input-you are clear and to the point. Don't sell yourself short.

 

[TruthSeeker]

@maryiscontrary Here is my take on the brain issues:

The word hex is inappropriate. A hex is a spell that has been cast on a person. Trauma has no relationship to witchcraft or voodoo.

Holograms are images created from altered/distorted light patterns-which create an illusion of a 3-D image-resembling a 3 D reality.
Your analogy was an interesting one. My tapestry poem mentioned past memories as possibly an illusion-those darker memories we can't recall because of the phenomenon of compartmentalization. Our brain is protective, it compartmentalizes memories and fills in gaps to make things make sense-particularly those things which are too difficult for us to retain in our memories and still function.

Medical shit happens-no one knows why. I can choose to believe I am cursed, or I can believe that "It's just life-shit happens." While I don't disagree that people with a trauma history tend to repeat the negatives, it is because our mental health and physical health are very much connected (more trauma, much higher risk of increased medical issues). Trauma and the medical consequences of increased ailments is a data=based fact. Trauma creates brain injury and in turn, depending upon the severity of trauma, we learn funky ways to cope-and our brain is running the show when we are in flight or fight mode. When you characterize your condition using the word "hexed" that is very negative-you are reinforcing the negativity that you seek to "kill off." Maybe you can consider a more positive way to talk to yourself.

Behavior is Learned: We learn our less than positive coping skills when growing up in a cult or black and white religious organization; grow up in a rigid family with super strict rules, have cold parents who don't feel their values, are taught them by an agency or the government, have abusive parents, and in these cases, our parents didn't model the behavior and values and feelings connections (right and wrong: right feels honorable, wrong feels guilty; boundaries-we don't touch people when we are angry-we don't hit others): I learned to"follow the rules" and "fix everything" and "be a super-this-that-mom-wife-teacher" and ignore my own needs and desires for the "sake of the family." I watched my mother minimize her needs, be a people pleaser, a perfectionish, and this was my normal. Everything our parents taught us was seen by us as normal-till we figured it out later in life. When you are dependent on another, it is harder to see what is and is not normal...as you need those very people who didn't give you the social life skills we need.

So, like you, I started pondering on the subject of personal change. I draw, write, create poems, work with clay, draw and paint, cook healthier, and am working on cutting out caffeine, having an exercise routine, and cook healthy meals I'll enjoy. I was searching for ways to get these traumas feelings from internal to external. It takes looking at them by drawing them, writing poetry, journaling, and even creating songs for me. Then it takes talking about it....ugh and knowing you can change your life, your tapestry. Making this happen requires a ton of patience. Instead of killing your ego, try befriending it and accepting it as a part of you. It is there for a reason. When it is stopping progress, check in with it and see why it is stopping progress....then work with it. You might thank it for being there for you. I have done a 12 step program.....and once, well, I found that I'd loop back and do a different step as needed. Good luck, just remember that part of you helped you when you couldn't and doesn't deserve to be killed.

Much of what happens, is a repeat of history. They abuse us, we abuse ourselves. Believing you can change-trash those negative thoughts and try self-acceptance. Countering the negative with a plausable positive argument can be a very healthy way to change your perspective on this whole ego-killing thing. Instead of killing it....just tame it a bit?

 

[Sideways]

Okay, so I think I’m starting to get what you’re saying. I think you’ve said that you’ve used ayahuasca in the past and experienced some short term benefits from that viz your symptoms?

This article on using psychadelics might interest you, insofar as it talks about people who, having experienced ‘ego death’ through use of that class of drugs, oftentimes decide that ego death is something worth pursuing in and of itself. There’s brief reference to some of the issues you might encounter there:
Tripping to achieve ego death

Personally I like Vice as a source of info, but they are by no means agenda-free or politically unalligned.

 

[maryiscontrary]

@ maryiscontrary Here is my take on the brain issues:

The word hex is inappropriate. A hex is a spell that has been cast on a person. Trauma has no relationship to witchcraft or voodoo.

Holograms are images created from altered/distorted light patterns-which create an illusion of a 3-D image-resembling a 3 D reality.
Your analogy was an interesting one. My tapestry poem mentioned past memories as possibly an illusion-those darker memories we can't recall because of the phenomenon of compartmentalization. Our brain is protective, it compartmentalizes memories and fills in gaps to make things make sense-particularly those things which are too difficult for us to retain in our memories and still function.

Medical shit happens-no one knows why. I can choose to believe I am cursed, or I can believe that "It's just life-shit happens." While I don't disagree that people with a trauma history tend to repeat the negatives, it is because our mental health and physical health are very much connected (more trauma, much higher risk of increased medical issues). Trauma and the medical consequences of increased ailments is a data=based fact. Trauma creates brain injury and in turn, depending upon the severity of trauma, we learn funky ways to cope-and our brain is running the show when we are in flight or fight mode. When you characterize your condition using the word "hexed" that is very negative-you are reinforcing the negativity that you seek to "kill off." Maybe you can consider a more positive way to talk to yourself.

Behavior is Learned: We learn our less than positive coping skills when growing up in a cult or black and white religious organization; grow up in a rigid family with super strict rules, have cold parents who don't feel their values, are taught them by an agency or the government, have abusive parents, and in these cases, our parents didn't model the behavior and values and feelings connections (right and wrong: right feels honorable, wrong feels guilty; boundaries-we don't touch people when we are angry-we don't hit others): I learned to"follow the rules" and "fix everything" and "be a super-this-that-mom-wife-teacher" and ignore my own needs and desires for the "sake of the family." I watched my mother minimize her needs, be a people pleaser, a perfectionish, and this was my normal. Everything our parents taught us was seen by us as normal-till we figured it out later in life. When you are dependent on another, it is harder to see what is and is not normal...as you need those very people who didn't give you the social life skills we need.

So, like you, I started pondering on the subject of personal change. I draw, write, create poems, work with clay, draw and paint, cook healthier, and am working on cutting out caffeine, having an exercise routine, and cook healthy meals I'll enjoy. I was searching for ways to get these traumas feelings from internal to external. It takes looking at them by drawing them, writing poetry, journaling, and even creating songs for me. Then it takes talking about it....ugh and knowing you can change your life, your tapestry. Making this happen requires a ton of patience. Instead of killing your ego, try befriending it and accepting it as a part of you. It is there for a reason. When it is stopping progress, check in with it and see why it is stopping progress....then work with it. You might thank it for being there for you. I have done a 12 step program.....and once, well, I found that I'd loop back and do a different step as needed. Good luck, just remember that part of you helped you when you couldn't and doesn't deserve to be killed.

Much of what happens, is a repeat of history. They abuse us, we abuse ourselves. Believing you can change-trash those negative thoughts and try self-acceptance. Countering the negative with a plausable positive argument can be a very healthy way to change your perspective on this whole ego-killing thing. Instead of killing it....just tame it a bit?

Thank you for your awesome response! Like I said earlier in this thread, which is getting awesomely long and involved, which is completely cool, that I use hex rhetorically. I could just say bad luck. Bad luck seems to follow people who have suffered childhood trauma oh, and the more trauma, it seems the more bad luck we have following us. Unless of course, we can somehow break this Chain of events.
Again, excuse my typos as this is voice dictated.
I came to this decision not lightly. Well over 20 years ago I studied various forms of meditation, some of them with Thai Buddhist monks. I was desperate to get rid of this horrible feeling that I suffered with day after day after day. Monstrous emotional flashbacks, with a mind of their own running rampant like a wildfire.
and the stress of this fatigue other brain parts and body parts, and so I developed lovely psychotic breaks and lovely out of control autoimmune conditions. I also had lovely addictions, all kinds of them, to try to blunt out the effects of my so-called hex. Non-stop agonizing anxiety. I did everything.
Now, I started making breakthroughs when I was hanging out with the hardcore hillbilly indigenous in the Amazon. These are not City Slickers, these are people living in thatched-roof housing, much like they did over a thousand years ago.
The big one came for me when I randomly took a boat taxi 2 hours up the river, and visited one of these communities. Understand that I was not a tourist in a tourist group. I was to them some wacky gringa oh, and they just could not figure it out and they thought it was funny as hell.
These were the schwar indigenous, the original Headhunters. on first glance, an anglophile perspective I would say that these were very poor people. They slept on dirt floors, and literally only had a few wooden benches as furniture. They did have regular clothing, probably donated.
but really talking with them, drinking with them, I realized these people had their s*** together far better than I could even imagine myself. the kids were super healthy oh, you didn't have the diabetes, heart disease, neurosis and mental illness that we westerners have. They did not have TV, or TV signals, or radio signals, or Wi-Fi signals, or newspapers.
They had the factory of the Amazon forest, so for the most part they were not dependent upon modern economic systems. there were a few small things, like access to free medical care, little things like that. But the men were handsome and strong and the women wear beautiful, and they just did not have the psycho mental illness that our culture does. These were not poor people, they've been living like they were living for a thousand plus years, maybe more like five thousand years since the original settlements. These people had their s*** together. I was completely awestruck. mind you, this was on a very tiny budget I was on.
Then, after making good buddies with a few quichua shaman, and asking questions about their culture, and hanging out, it was basically the same thing. not a lot of drama, no yelling, and for the most part people getting along very very well. Basic courtesy.
I realized my issues were mine, a product of toxic elements of my anglophile culture. I'm not saying that they did not have their b******* oh, I'm just saying that the trauma and stress they endured was far less then what we endured.
so this is what I mean by killing off the ego, I'm talking about shedding really dysfunctional conditioning that was hammered into us before preverbal stage. I shed pieces of it here and there over the last seven years, but I was extremely frustrated that I would have these horrific flare-ups of Non-Stop flashbacks and dissociation.
again, looking at the very high statistical risk from the ace study that I personally have of early death, I don't have anything left to lose.
thank you guys for being here, and witnessing this. And challenging me. We are living in a holographic reality, so really nothing really matters. Especially the ego, which is just another layer of Illusion on top of an already synthetic simulation.