Treading Dangerously?!

[p-no]

So what does a therapist do when you first meet and they don't know you? (...) I try and work it out here with good intent and there are roadblocks everywhere and watch out if you don't respond appropriately. :meh:

I think it all comes down to one thing. You (anyone) can not save another person. The only person who can save me is me. The only person who can save them is them. And a person can only save him/herself if he/she really wants to. The bad part about this is, the very bad part, is that many of us think they want it enough (referring to a great, deep longing for change), but have not yet come to understand that some things can not be done by merely thinking and wanting and longing, but only by continually acting (even by continually guiding your own thoughts). What I mean by this is that I myself, until year 35, did not really understand that there really is no such thing as a prince on a white horse or a replacement mother in the body of an elderly lady who would give up their lives to make mine worthwhile.

Yes, I have always done (actions) things to get better, but deep down there was this huge, huge longing for someone to care enough to save me. I thought (and hurt right along with that thought): If it is true what people tell me that I am loveable and that I deserve love, must that not show in someone to come love me? So I was really waiting for someone to come save me. Not realizing that my definition of "love" was all wrong, not realizing that "everyone is I", meaning that everyone is human, has a right to live their life the way they want to (even if that includes leaving me!), everyone makes mistakes, no one can save another. You really truly can be in a state of mind that makes it impossible to really see. I think there are many reasons as to why you can be in a state like that, one of which I think is: you would feel you'd die right there on the spot if you allowed to even feel for a second that that longing will never be fulfilled. It's the longing of a child and one that's been alone. So, if there are roadblocks on a road, don't try to go down that road. You can't drive there, it's not possible, even if it leaves you sad and/or whatever else.

The thing is no-one can see it, they don't understand but if I don't go lie on that floor I will physically fail. So do I tell them so they know and give them a chance to understand or do I say nothing and destroy myself?

If (and please take that if seriously) you have not learned that even your most basic needs are important enough to be heard, destroying yourself comes a lot more naturally then helping yourself. This is very sad but very true.


Nicolette, I think I do understand the meaning of this original post, since I feel the reasons for or meaning of mine in another thread is similar. I also asked because I wanted to know, because I don't understand. So, again, I think that the answers you got in your thread are the answers you got. That's what it is.

 

[Nicolette]

Thank you Lizio and again Hope.

I saw my dad struggle through life, I have seen my sister at the brink (a lot like your story Lizio but I believe my sister is still alive), i have been broken many times to and I have to agree with "sometimes you just have to" keep trying. I was a single mother so I had to drag my sorry butt out to work when I wanted to hide from the world. I do get how serious PTSD is and that's why I'm trying here.

I could be my sister who now can never work of function in society without still being tied to the strings which abused us both in the first place. Maybe I am searching for the key to what creates such a difference which can define life and death.

I believe I learned more skills by having to suck it up and function than any sympathetic response. I know my sister would be better if she had removed herself from the toxicity of the same situation. Maybe it's like a drug addict or someone co-dependent who keeps going back to escapism/numbing or what they are familiar with?

This leads me full circle back to supporting what Lucycat said in order to overcome or at least manage this illness - you need a long term goal as well. Yes a goal to get out of bed might be now but to recover it had to become more as otherwise you stagnant and life will stay as it is. I don't know... I thought I was done with this but here I go never giving up I guess?!

 

[Queen Boudica]

until year 35, did not really understand that there really is no such thing as a prince on a white horse or a replacement mother in the body of an elderly lady who would give up their lives to make mine worthwhile. Yes, I have always done (actions) things to get better, but deep down there was this huge, huge longing for someone to care enough to save me. I thought (and hurt right along with that thought): If it is true what people tell me that I am loveable and that I deserve love, must that not show in someone to come love me? So I was really waiting for someone to come save me. Not realizing that my definition of "love" was all wrong, not realizing that "everyone is I",

Oh so true. As a child I would have these awake dreams that superman was going to rescue me and care for me. I carried that on into my adulthood and thought my abusive ex H was that superman he was caring for me, when, in fact he was controlling and abusive, but I was so used to that environment. My experience of Love was from abusive people who taught me I was not worth love, so I do not love myself.

I think there are many reasons as to why you can be in a state like that, one of which I think is: you would feel you'd die right there on the spot if you allowed to even feel for a second that that longing will never be fulfilled. It's the longing of a child and one that's been alone.

Yes also so true. I struggle with that so much now. That can bring me so down I feel like I am going to shatter into a thousand pieces. That feeling of being so alone that you could die right on the spot because you know no-one is going to come and rescue you and you have to do it all on your own. Because as a child you were alone and unloved and that tears you apart.

If (and please take that if seriously) you have not learned that even your most basic needs are important enough to be heard, destroying yourself comes a lot more naturally then helping yourself. This is very sad but very true.

Like allowing yourself to stay in an abusive relationship rather than getting out because of the fear of being alone and there is no-one to look after you. Not valuing yourself or asking for help because you are too afraid of rejection or that you are not worth the help, others are more important.

You are so right, it all boils down to this:

The only person who can save me is me. The only person who can save them is them. And a person can only save him/herself if he/she really wants to.

 

[Queen Boudica]

I know my sister would be better if she had removed herself from the toxicity of the same situation. Maybe it's like a drug addict or someone co-dependent who keeps going back to escapism/numbing or what they are familiar with?

I tried to get my sister to see that she had to remove herself from my mother. She eventually saw it but was so dependent on my mother she could not get away. The two of them were co-dependent. I agree she went back to what she was familiar with. Years of that abusive co-dependence. That is the same with abusive marriages I reckon.

 

[Nicolette]

Thanks Prime-no. I'm getting frustrated as I'm trying to understand and possibly support but I don't want to save anyone nor enable them either.

I think you are right - what is has been said and I'm not going to find what I was hoping to find. Time to move past this.

 

[p-no]

Why does PTSD make some people so defensive when someone is standing in front of you with their hand out saying I will support you but I will call you on your sh*t and pity parties?

I don't want to be splitting hairs, but I think it is really important to get the image straight. It's not the PTSD, it's the trauma(s). For me that's a huge difference because defensiveness during trauma is life-saving and life-sustaining. It's a means of survival and of getting a person to here and now, which is what it deserves a thank-you for. Defensiveness after trauma would change to "excess defensiveness" for me; you wouldn't need that kind of defensiveness anymore (although you might feel that yes, you do). The problem with this has been for me (and I'm still struggling at times) that if you grow up in a very dysfunctional (underestimated) home, you do not learn what "normal" is. You learn "black and white" and that's about it.

So your brain grows up learning there are good people and bad people. And you judge on what people make you feel rather than what they do (I hate this and getting rid of it is hard work, once again.) So, support can make you feel really really bad: First of all, offers of support show you that you actually need it or that others think so (= no good feeling). Then, you are constantly asked how they can help you. Truth may be, you don't even know yourself because you never had many options and have simply not learned how many there really are in all the shades of grey (= no good feeling). The supporter seems to believe in you, gives you that impression by what s/he says to you (you are strong, you can do this...), but you don't (= no good feeling)... You are confronted with yourself there, and that can be extremely painful, it can be perceived as literally (!) putting your life in danger, and what you do when you feel your life (= your emotional and physical state of being) is in danger, you go into defense.

That's what happens when someone expresses their support a lot. If they just help, it's great and highly appreciated. If we need to talk it out, it's difficult for me because, once again, as in my childhood, I am faced with all I can not do and do need help with, although all I have been running for therapy for since age 19 is getting out and "normal". Here I am at 37 just finding I am not "normal" and will not be. This is difficult to live with. Maybe this can give you a little idea, maybe not. I hope it can.

I initially felt sorry for Anthony but pity is the last thing he needs and if I shut up and put up with some of the crap I would be allowing him to abuse me as a person. Yes he can be sick with PTSD, just tell me and I'll do the best I can but don't swear at me, blame me for your stress overload or punish me when I have my own plate to carry. Seems to have worked a treat so I have come along way with one person 101 so why are others deciding for me that there is so much diversity that it's all too hard?

Thank you for this, Nicolette, seriously. That's exactly what I think. People with PTSD have learned to have their boundaries taken away, crossed and/or have never learned to have any in the first place. It is vital (also for those with PTSD!) that their partner, family, etc. set their boundaries right so that we can see clearly where they are, also, in order to learn about them in their partner, family, etc. And in order to be able to compare them to our own and see if we would like to make adjustments to ours. And, naturally, they need to do it for themselves. I personally have enough to do watching out for my own; I need people around me who have a strong core self that they can look out for for themselves. Being treated normal, equal, is vital for me. How I am to learn what "normal" is otherwise?

 

[Meadowsweet]

Nicollette, I think it is usual for people to relate to people who have similarities to themselves and to find it difficult to understand how other's percieve the world.

There are people who give up or stay in a comfort zone, there are people who keep trying to be perfect and never learn to simply relax and enjoy what they have. And then there are perfect people like us who keep on trying and achieve everything we want to ;) (that is intended as humour!)

I have ptsd and there is a lot I havn't worked through, but there is some stuff that I have. One of the reasons I've replied to this thread as I have, is because I relate more to your frustration at not being able to lift people out of the rut, than I do to being there myself.

Eventually, through looking at myself, I recognised that part of my frustration at people who were seemingly self-pitying and not even trying was based on my envy (or unresolved need) of the hugs and sympathy they got from being like that.

I have an unhealthy need to show that I'm capable and dealing with all that life throws at me. But inside there is a small child who wants to break down in tears and be picked up and made better. So that is where my frustration at people who seem able to break down comes from.

The feelings are still in me, but I'm more aware of what they mean for me. The effect of that is that I'm less effected by what others do and am focussing more on my own issues.

In writing all that, I might not be understanding you at all. I am simply relating what I read to my own experiences. Maybe it is 100% different to you. But that is the point, it's ok that I don't understand others. Because there will be somebody more like them who can understand.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[ms spock]

This is a very interesting thread to read. I do appreciate all the responses. Nicolette, you are a real asset to the forum and Anthony is a smart and lucky man to have you as his partner.

My problem is with over doing it, taking on too much and looking after too many people. I have improved dramatically with this issues that the underlying panic of PTSD made me incapable of refining my emotional regulation. I have made great progress with this these last few weeks. That has culminated from years of work.

I am studying full time and at a couple of classes at night. I am taking a lot of responsibility for my life. I am currently organising the media for an exhibitiion that I am part of and running a media and lobbying campaign. I am in conflict with the management over theirs lies about budget cuts, I am finding this hard. I am lucky and smart enough, like Anthony, to be in a relationship - it is a long distance relationship but I do feel loved and cared for and I realise I have to pick up all the stuff that is mine to deal with. One of my best friends is dying in hospital and we are have a very long and prolonged good bye which is tender, sad and wonderful at the same time. I am a member of my communities and as such have responsibilities, but I need to refine this to not take responsibility for what is my stuff and not rescue the people when they need to do it themselves. I come here and some times talk about the basics and simple things as self soothing and self care are two of my challenges. I am improving at not overdoing it all the time. I am making strategic retreats. I am also out there learning and living and engaging in the world each day, except the last two Saturdays which I have been allowing as my reading and resting days.

The stagnation is a worry and I have stagnated at certain times because of survivor guilt, low self esteem and some times really not knowing what to do. I don't have family support. I also need to change my self in order to allow more intimacy in my life. I am working on this and calming down and doing better.

Just sitting with how hard it is to change myself and be in my life is what I have written about in my trauma diary, this is where I have been at, although I am doing many other things as well.

 

[Froggie]

$100 if Anthony posed my questions the responses would be different. Okay, yes I did say that out loud. :locktopic: If Anthony told you that you were enabling yourself you would possibly me more likely to listen and go and evaluate what he said. I wonder if my 'supporter' hat here creates fear in PTSD Sufferers and they are scared we may just get a slight grip on what they are struggling with and work out what to look out for?

That is a fact that some answers would be different, but you may not have gotten all the answers, reflexions and communication as Anthony is more raw and confronting than you Nicolette. He used to intimidate me but got to appreciate the guy as I was getting to feel stronger and more sure of myself.

I too sometimes got the feelings that some were using PTSD as an excuse to not do things nor help themselves, but that is a minority and I usually don't reply nor click "like" to their posts if I get that impression. One almost has to take the time to read other posts from that person to get a better picture of the situation. Many have mentionned at the end of their posts that they are having a pity party at that moment, those are the members who have matured and assume their "down moment". And that is ok as it shows the continuum of their stamina for the day or the week. When that down moment lasts too long they get help as they know this can't go on ... like just getting out of bed is the best they can do. They dare themselves to MOVE. Maybe I feel more compassion since I've got cancer and that sometimes my body takes me hostage and keeps me in a sleep mode to save energy - sometimes 16-18 hours/day! My head wants more but can't move because, like I said, my body took me hostage ... so yeah, getting out of PJs can be quite a task for me some days.

 

[Froggie]

I've got a suggestion, for some posts instead of putting them in the Goal for today, why not be more proactive and put the accomplishments in What I did for myself today. It goes from
1) I intend to get out of bed, take a shower, clean house, etc. .... to
2) I managed to get out of bed, take a shower, clean house today, etc. ... (for me)

But like I said, this is just a suggestion

 

[Lucycat]

$100 if Anthony posed my questions the responses would be different. Okay, yes I did say that out loud. :locktopic: If Anthony told you that you were enabling yourself you would possibly me more likely to listen and go and evaluate what he said. I wonder if my 'supporter' hat here creates fear in PTSD Sufferers and they are scared we may just get a slight grip on what they are struggling with and work out what to look out for? :bag:

Nicolette, I believe if Anthony had posed the original question he would not have done so with an apology for upsetting anybody. I am not criticising you just commenting that you have entirely different styles. In many of your replies within this thread you appear frustrated but still share your kind heart by thanking people for their input.

I think it is great that your different approaches complement each other.

I have read many posts where Anthony has criticised 'pity parties' and it comes across as if he is telling people to 'get a grip'. Nothing wrong with that, although it may offend some.

There are many threads on here that I chose not to read as they are so negative. I prefer inspiration and humour. However when I am feeling low I might veer towards threads that just make me feel worse. It can be like a magnet because I want to validate why I am feeling bad. However I know that does not help me and Rory gives me a row if he catches me at it!!

I have spent so much time in therapy being reminded of how far I have come in my healing journey and I think that is very important. Every step forward is just that - a step FORWARDS, and I cannot afford to go back or stagnate. I know there are always more bumps along the way to trip you up or slow you down but they should never send you right back to the beginning.

 

[CraftyCath]

Sweet Nicolette.

How wonderful that you care so much for the people here. I have wrote in the 'Goal for the Day' thread and must admit I hadn't thought at all about what I put. I used it as a 'to-do' list and not as true goal setting which, in retrospect, is wrong of me. I believe I need to set myself some challenging goals but that thread isn't the place for it as they would be long-term goals not daily ones.

I understand your frustrations, I have a Son who is stuck in his own rut and will do nothing to help himself out of it. He throws it all on me and heaven forbid if I try to help him out of it! It is about making choices, of wanting to get better and pushing yourself. The difference between a pig and a sheep. If a sheep falls in a muddy ditch it will bleat and bleat until the shepherd comes and gets it out but a pig will sit and wallow in it. My son is content to wallow, I am not. I appreciate that for some people what seems like a small achievement to others could be a big move for them but I also agree that you have to make those small goals a little bigger each time. I have set myself some big goals before and fell flat on my face because I expect too much from myself, I'm a perfectionist and I punish myself for failure. Goals have to be reasonable and balanced to the need of each person.

As a nurse I quickly realised that one patient would respond to treatment while another wouldn't and needed a different treatment and longer to recover. We are all different as are our goals; it is not setting any goals at all that defeats us and keeps us down. Believing that we cannot achieve anything and will always be this way.

Here is my answers to some of your questions Nicolette, I truly hope they help. I appreciate you for who you are.

.do some of you actually put yourself in the third person and read your own posts?

Yes! I'm not always keen on what I have written but I do attempt to push myself past anything negative that I have wrote. Challenging my own behavior.

Are some of you your own worst enemy?

Definitely! There is no one here to encourage me, I have to encourage myself. If someone says something negative to me I can choose to accept it or not. But if it is 'me' being negative on myself what then? I think that is one of the things I have learned from the Forum...to choose to be positive and to change my perspective. To like myself and to not be so hard and self-punishing as I was. I still get down on myself and sulk but at least I know I'm doing it and get out of it quickly. I'm never down for long these days.

Are your supporters limiting you by accepting that this is the best you will ever be or become?

I love my husband and lads very much but I have to agree with what you said here Nicolette. You are a strong, motivated supporter for Anthony and would challenge his behaviour. My H loves me and is supportive but his own problems tend to leave me to figuring things out for myself. If I discuss anything about my PTSD with him he tries to understand but it just sets all his stuff off from his childhood and then I end up helping him! (He doesn't have PTSD but he does have problems). He cannot switch off his 'stuff' in order to care about mine. He is terrified of change and that means I am in this all by myself (except for the Forum), no family help, no close friends near by.

My Son's are 19 and 22 and are both stuck in a rut. The youngest suffers chronic anxiety and social phobia and wont even apply for unemployment benefit or disability. My eldest has just failed his 3rd year at Uni and doesn't have a clue what to do next. He is terrified of even making a phone call and neither lad will answer the phone.

My 'supporters' are not accepting that this is the best I will ever become but they do not encourage or challenge me either. I'm trying to be positive in a very negative household. Money has dried up so I have had to stop therapy.

Why does PTSD make some people so defensive when someone is standing in front of you with their hand out saying I will support you but I will call you on your sh*t and pity parties?

It is a self-defense mechanism built into all of us in some ways. Trauma magnifies it 100%. One of my nursing tutors once told that I put up defensive barriers. I did not understand what she meant until I went through therapy. One thing I have learned is that it is not only people with PTSD it can be anyone. I have know people who seek attention, complain about everything, are very defensive and self-pitying. I think the answer here is that people can become bitter from experience or better from it. During hopelessness and despair it is difficult to see any light and often the way towards it is having someone who won't give up on you no matter what :poop: you throw at them or how defensive they are. Hurt people have often had their trust broken and it takes time to learn to trust again, to reach out and grasp the hand that is being held out towards them in love and friendship instead of anger and hate. I have never thrown my PTSD at my H and kids nor used it as an excuse. Would they be more supportive if I did? Would it wake them up to the hell I have been living? I never would, but it is a thought.

I wonder if my 'supporter' hat here creates fear in PTSD Sufferers and they are scared we may just get a slight grip on what they are struggling with and work out what to look out for?

Not me Mrs! Sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees and I need someone to point it out. The Forum is a great place for that and often I get lots of different advice that I can read through and study before applying. I don't like being challenged but I know it is necessary for growth. I can choose to be offended but that doesn't make the statement offensive - just my reaction to it.

Oh and by the way...people do listen to Anthony of course but we don't need another Anthony...one is enough!:eek:;) We do however need a Nicolette with her sensitivity to people and her love of fun. :tup:

I know my sister would be better if she had removed herself from the toxicity of the same situation.

Yes she would. It took me years to realise this but like I said, sometimes we can't see the wood for the trees and sometimes, like someone else said in this thread, it is the fear - the fear of fear itself. The fear of change. Some people will accept the crappy state they are in and do little or nothing to change because they are so bound up in fear. The 'what if's' of life. Those on this Forum who have made changes have found the courage to face that fear and push through it. I'm still learning.

I know someone who does not have PTSD but will avoid going to a certain place because something bad happened there. As I said, it is not just PTSDers it is just people, their personalities and the choices they make or don't make.

Much love and hugs to you Nicolette. x:hug:

(Loving the new emoticons:tup:)