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Trust and betrayal

Thread starter #14
I think there might be some over-simplification of a complex issue going on here.

This sounds a bit like catastrophising.

If covid is active in your community, having any visitor carries a degree of risk. You can reduce that risk by asking them to wash their hands with soap on arrival, and practicing social distancing (ie. don't touch them, don't go near them, disinfect the surfaces they touched when they leave - and all of those risk reducing actions are things you can control).

But, once you've agreed to a visitor? He hasn't "put your life at risk", at best, he's contributed to increasing your risk of potentially catching Covid.

But, you're already at risk when you have visitors. Period.

So, because of all the above, he probably didn't perceive this situation the same way you have. He probably genuinely didn't think "this is risking your life, when you would otherwise be 100% safe".

I get why you wanted to know. Why you felt entitled to know. I would too.

At the same time, if I've blown my top at someone multiple times in the past, I can probably assume they're going to try and avoid poking the bear.

He wanted see his daughter, and probably didn't want to cop it from you. That's not great behaviour from him, but relationships are a 2 way street. And wanting to see your child? Is probably a big deal to him.

Not saying what he did was okay.

But I think construing this situation as him deliberately putting your life at risk? And he's a habitual liar because he didn't tell you about his daughter's social activities? Is a bit catastrophic. Not a great, but probably not utterly dire either.

Since her visiting? Put you at risk. Period. With or without her visiting friends on the way.

I can understand why you want to know how exposed to the virus people have been before they enter your home. The decision about whether they're welcome in your home or not? Is entirely your call.

That doesn't actually entitle you to information about exactly where they've been and when, though.

Not trying to be disagreeable, just offering an alternative perspective. Because this situation seems to have a lot more moving parts to it than: he lied and knowingly risked my life.
You are absolutely right. Thanks.

He increased my risk of catching a virus that could have fatal consequences but I was absolutely catastrophizing.

Unfortunately with his ADHD and his privacy over openness value system, trust is already a thorny issue. This just hit a weird place and shattered something for me. I feel better than I did when it all happened but still don't trust him. It's not just that he was going to let her attend a social event. It's that he was going to hide information from me. That's a huge fear for me and he often does it because yeah, don't poke the bear.

I just don't want things hidden. If it's hidden you can't plan and brace yourself for the fallout.
 
#16
If it's hidden you can't plan and brace yourself for the fallout.
You were in a scary situation (high risk person, potentially exposed to covid). Him not being completely honest with you? Would genuinely take that from scary to downright frightening and far more stressful. It's definitely in order to have some compassion for yourself. Getting angry with him about it makes perfect sense to me.

I don't know where you go with that. Do we make big decisions in the middle of a pandemic? Probably not. But that doesn't mean brush it under the carpet either.
 
Thread starter #17
You were in a scary situation (high risk person, potentially exposed to covid). Him not being completely honest with you? Would genuinely take that from scary to downright frightening and far more stressful. It's definitely in order to have some compassion for yourself. Getting angry with him about it makes perfect sense to me.

I don't know where you go with that. Do we make big decisions in the middle of a pandemic? Probably not. But that doesn't mean brush it under the carpet either.
Yeah, we have an appointment with a counselor we have used in the past. My spouse doesn't get why I am feeling this as a betrayal of trust. I asked him to read about it and tell me what he learned. It took multiple attempts to get him to read it and he still hasn't done the second part. We are having a lot of issues at the moment, most around trust for me (he has a different perspective, thinks I just want drama) 🙄
How long have you been married to this man? Why is everything that is hidden always have to be a fallout? ( not trying to be snarky)
6 years, information that is kept from me means I don't have time to plan for it or react to it, things may fall apart. There have been other issues where I did not have information and was blind sided in a traumatic manner within this relationship.

If it is hidden then there is something to hide, usually means the information will be difficult or cause disruption. If there is no reason to hide it then it should be shared.

I don't believe consciously that hidden information WILL cause problems but that it could. It often has. I can't control a situation I don't know about. I don't want to admit that is part of the picture here but it is. I mean it more in the sense of I cannot control my own immediate environment to protect myself if I don't have information about potential threats and problems.
 
#18
To trust is a choice. It's most often based on the action I can live with. I am not wrong, for instance in trusting someone... but when a demonstrated pattern of behavior emerges, independent of my own stuff heaped onto it... there comes a point to reexamine. There are other ways to have relationships that are necessary, for instance without the trust/betrayal theme.
 
#20
Honestly, I would reconsider how much I'm mixing the past and now, mine and his issues.

Because you said you are triggered to the past instances in the relationship. That alone can skew the current perspective.

You say you don't think he meant to hurt you...
Yet you *treat* him as absolutely convinced of his being guilty of wanting to cause you lethal harm. Reconsider that, as there is a huge mismatch of tone of what you say and how you say you react.

And consider that not all that feels a betrayal... is one.

Ask if in doubt. The partner. And how they meant.

/

I sympathize, by the way. I was ready to walk away from my relationship of a few years a few months ago, over things I felt done behind my back.

Talking it through? The partner kept my life very in mind with every of those decisions. While, true, being impulsive and not wellest organized about theirs, objectively. But the huge Feels Betrayal? Was there only in my eyes.

Not saying emotions wise it cleared out and patched itself, yet. It hasn't. But emotions don't get to rule my choices where lives are concerned. Ever.
 
Thread starter #21
Something else came up around this. I don't know if I am using this subforum as designed or not but part of my struggle is understanding my beliefs and reactions in the context where they are triggered, understanding what's mine and what's not mine, what's past vs present and so forth. I need clear, consistent rules to understand. Especially when I am told that my urge for information is me being controlling because I don't know where the "normal person" line is drawn or how normal people deal with information, privacy vs disclosure etc.

He said he would be late getting home from work.

I said not that it's any of my business but is there a particular reasons why?

"Why wouldn't it be your business?"

"Because you randomly decide that I'm an intrusive bitch so I avoid trying to ask about anything that doesn't affect me."

He denied this then said
When you try to control my every action regardless of how minor or its effect on you it's a problem. Knowing what I have going on isn't

But that exact question has led to him saying I'm just up his ass all the time. I am so confused and do not understand the rules of when it is ok to want information and when it isn't.

One time a couple months ago he went out and was gone way longer than I expected so I called and he first would not volunteer where he was or what he was doing so I asked and he was vague, and it took several questions but eventually I learned that he had stopped at a park right by the house to use some medicine that couldn't wait, but him not just saying that in the first place makes me feel like he is hiding something.

I was like I wish you had told me, either let me know you would be longer than it takes to do the thing you planned to do or not been weird and vague when I asked what was going on, and he's all you're a control freak.

Both situations are about outside issues that influence when he gets home, both involve sharing information and trust vs mistrust based on what is being volunteered. I don't understand why one situation is okay and one isn't.

Honestly, I would reconsider how much I'm mixing the past and now, mine and his issues.

Because you said you are triggered to the past instances in the relationship. That alone can skew the current perspective.

You say you don't think he meant to hurt you...
Yet you *treat* him as absolutely convinced of his being guilty of wanting to cause you lethal harm. Reconsider that, as there is a huge mismatch of tone of what you say and how you say you react.

And consider that not all that feels a betrayal... is one.

Ask if in doubt. The partner. And how they meant.

/

I sympathize, by the way. I was ready to walk away from my relationship of a few years a few months ago, over things I felt done behind my back.

Talking it through? The partner kept my life very in mind with every of those decisions. While, true, being impulsive and not wellest organized about theirs, objectively. But the huge Feels Betrayal? Was there only in my eyes.

Not saying emotions wise it cleared out and patched itself, yet. It hasn't. But emotions don't get to rule my choices where lives are concerned. Ever.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I guess I felt that I was treating him like "you say you have my back but you don't and I need to be careful around you." I don't think it was malice, it was impulsivity and conflict avoidance.

My severe anger at feeling he doesn't have my back, doesn't protect me, is a combination of many lapses in trustworthiness or protective behavior - along with something else I need to dig into better.

We talked to a couples person about this incident today and I broke down in tears even though it isn't fresh, it isn't in my face like it was when it happened, I know the context, I know he went back and made a different decision, but I have this expectation that people who are supposed to help you will not help, will not be there for you, will betray you, and he just ticked that box for me on an emotional level. He confirmed a deep schema that I am trying to fight against. When there's a huge rut moving in the direction of "people will screw you over" and I am trying to evaluate the situation I don't even know what's true. I know what I feel. And that maybe this person's baseline behavior is such that the dynamic will always be inflammatory for me, even if there's no malicious intention behind it. People can still hurt you, traumatize you just living their lives.

I would love to be a person that isn't ruled by their emotions. Unfortunately EMDR took away the lifetime of dissociative numbness I was using to compartmentalize them and now I don't know how to balance using emotion and instinct to make decisions and letting it run me for issues like these. I want to go back to being a pod person.
 
#22
My severe anger at feeling he doesn't have my back, doesn't protect me, is a combination of many lapses in trustworthiness or protective behavior - along with something else I need to dig into better.
Just ignore this if not helpful, but I've been trying to understand anger lately, and surely trust is always paramount. I did learn a person's reactions are based on themself: the example was a transit driver acts poorly: person 1 becomes severely depressed, reminded of her father's behaviour in childhood. Person 2 becomes angry at the injustice; person 3 is reminded of their days living in that city, and the ebb and flow and speed and attitude of some of the inhabitants. So, ultimately, one person is deeply saddened, one irate, one nostalgic. All would likely agree the driver's behaviour was poor. But all are correct, through their own lens. Hence to feel angry (or anything else) comes back to what is inside of us, we can't defer cause on to another.

And that (often) people don't apologize when they have bad self-esteem. (But then again- maybe because they think they're justified? Because everyone feels more justified than the other person. Rather than seeing the conflict as the murky waters between them, not the other person.)

The same psychologist (?) said most couples go to therapy to secretly try to change the other person, not work on themself (the only part you have control over). It's very rare for someone to think, am I the being the person they would want to be married to? Rather it's the litany of where the other person is failing.

Perhaps a step is missed- of saying I feel this when you do that. It would really help me if you could (X- do whatever that is concrete, not generalized). And then shoot for improvement, not perfection.

It could also be very confusing, to say tell me, but then say why are you telling me? So I think there would have to be an element of good faith, thinking you are on the same side (which is a cognitive decision). And boundaries: for example, this could affect my health, therefore I will (x- be staying elsewhere; like to have a discussion if we can both agree, etc.; maybe ask why he felt it important to have her over (vs why he hid it) ).

Good luck. :hug:
 
#23
ETA @HealingMama , I do remember they said anger is a secondary emotion- it always refers back to what's underneath (like an iceberg). And is neither good or bad, like saying, "I'm thirsty".

Would it help, if you said to your H something like, ~'When I found out about them coming, and knowing their presence could possibly (not probably) affect my health, I felt (X). And being triggered gives me a feeling of my safety is gone (not, you are causing me to feel unsafe). And what do you think about the relative risk? (etc)". And don't be afraid to agree to disagree. But then set boundaries, not punitive, just meeting each/ both of your needs. Try to find agreement for future happenings/ incidents that are similar.

I think the, 'be curious, not furious' adage applies well. And listening. Much listening. But difficult to do. He may feel he has to solve what you feel. Especially if you feel he's causing what you are feeling, rather than telling him how you interpret his (in)actions, and what you internalize about them.
 
#24
@HealingMama this isn't what I originally saw, but it's the same researcher, and you might relate a little bit, as too why you feel unheard?


ETA I think this is one I saw:


It's not the whole extent of it, but in my family I think we go to 0-flooded pretty quickly/ often. So much so, unidentified, it's more often the norm.
 
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