News U.s. Healthcare System

[angel2write]

Ok, I'm probably going to regret opening this can of worms quickly.

But I'm going to be brave here and state something that goes against the flow of comments I'm reading elsewhere on this forum.

I think Obama's healthcare plan is a horrible idea. (gasp, shock, surprise!)

As others have pointed out elsewhere in this section, the USA is on the financial rocks. Obama is printing money, passing out handouts, and increasing our load of debt at a time when our trillion-dollar debt is doubling every three to five years.

This is bad for reasons that should be very obvious to anyone who pays bills. We have too much debt, not enough income. If the debt gets too bad, our economy will totally collapse. No one will get health care. Think great depression and kids starving in the streets. Foreclosure on a national scale. No more bailouts, because there is no one to do the bailing. A run on banks. Currency going into rapid inflation like it did in Germany after the second world war. We will lose our homes, jobs, schools, etc. And there will be no handouts, no section 8 housing, no Medicaid, no Medicare, no Social Security (which has been bankrupt for a while).

As my ex-father-in-law said so eloquently, you can't get blood from a turnip. If the money is not there to pay for something, the money is not there.

If the healthcare bill passes as is, we may be able to afford it for a few years. For a few years, everyone in America will have health coverage. But what will happen in twenty years as our debt continues to snowball, our birthrate continues to decline, and more and more people go on welfare as they lose their jobs to recession or companies moving overseas? HOW LONG do people think the free handouts can last?

Lest I seem heartless, I would like to comment that I think poor people do deserve healthcare. My parents are insuranceless and going through cancer and another major illness right now. They have received every care they could need, testing, treatments, chemo, etc through the St. Mary's Bonsecours hospital and through a clinic run by a combination of... wait for it.... Christian churches in Richmond. When my family and I researched clinics for them, we found not less than 19 free clinics in Richmond. We live in a small town here, and there are at least two free clinics available here.

I believe that when the government takes over the charity business, they bureacratize it and turn it into a money-wasting machine. Much like our public education system (a subject for another time...)

We lived for a time in Canada under the lovely national health care system there. Everyone complained about it constantly. The inefficiency. How they could never get enough doctors because doctors couldn't make enough money to make it worth the training. People crossing the border to the US to get health care there. Sloppiness all over the board. If our system goes nationalized, where will we cross the border to? Mexico?

Having the government take over our health care system means it will be run JUST AS lovingly and efficiently as our current Medicare system. Anybody here on that? How's that working out for you?
From what I hear they kept cutting the payments on everything and disallowing more and more procedures because they CAN'T MAKE THE BOOKS BALANCE. They can't pay the bills, people. Fewer and fewer mental health providers will even take Medicare patients because they don't pay enough to keep them in practice. Nursing homes have to ration the number of Medicare beds to keep their doors open. And it's not just selfishness. Doctors and nursing homes have a lot of expenses to meet, including expensive educations to pay off, expensive equipment that costs a whole lot more than your house, employees, buildings, utilities, medications, supplies (that are outrageously expensive) and last but not least, malpractice insurance.

The single best thing we could do for the American health system would be to make better laws about nuisance lawsuits against doctors. The mal-practice insurance these people have to carry is incredible.

Wanting to give every man, woman, and child in America access to health care is a good goal. Something we should do. But is the way our government is going about it the right way? I sincerely doubt it. Which is why I remain a much-maligned, conservative, religious right-wing type person who voted against, and will vote against Obama and all his money-printing ilk as long as they keep running for office on a "free handouts!" platform.

They accuse us "religious right" people of not caring about poor people. But do you know who funds the food banks, homeless shelters, domestic violence shelters, adoption and pregnancy care centers, free medical clinics, and clothing closets across the US? The freaking religious right!!!

Sigh.

I am now getting down off my soap box.

 

[Weapon]

Not only are we in debt but to who? CHINA!!! what the heck was that man thinking.

 

[anthony]

Obama was left with the crap to pickup... people should not be throwing stones in his direction IMHO... as it was only the complete and utter mess he inherited from Bush and prior, to now try and fix... and the US issue goes all the way back to Regan, if memory serves me correctly... was it Carter, not sure, who wanted to change America away from capitalism, so they got rid of him, put in an actor as President and sold America capitalism.

I think people get too focused on who they see now vs. were a problem is actually caused, then perpetuates as it goes. Bush was the nutjob who abolished nearly all of the USA's red tape on financial policy, which was holding the country together. If Bush didn't do what he did, America would be in a recession, sure, but nothing like what has happened with the mortgage debacle or sheer financial sector collapse.

Obama has to implement change... because he knows everything from the past has failed the country, which is what lead to it currents position, so he has to take the brunt to be the one who implements change.

Will he get it right in only an 8 year period? Not a chance... but if he gets the ball rolling, then the US will come back, because right now, I was watching this morning that the US has collapsed further now financially, its physically going backwards at a rate that IS impacting the rest of the world. Someone has to change the country... and I don't think it matters who it is, they will get it wrong initially, but atleast if they get change going for the rest to continually refine and improve, that has to be a good thing for the US and all other countries... considering we all share financial burden via trade nowadays.

 

[angel2write]

Actually, the Regan years brought the US out of a long period of runaway inflation with interest rates on housing loans rising as high as 17%. His "trickle down" economics really worked (much to the fury of his opposition, whose plan has always been "tax the rich until their businesses collapse").

Oddly enough, if you provide financial support and incentives to businesses, there are more jobs. If there are more jobs, there are more people spending, saving, and supporting themselves and less people on welfare. And if there are more people working and less people on welfare, the economy reverses, there is more tax money, and we can actually take care of our less fortunate citizens. (As opposed to having 40% of the population on the dole, like the British do?)

 

[anthony]

As opposed to having 40% of the population on the dole, like the British do?

Are you saying Britain has 40% unemployed at present? That is what they would require to have that dole rate! Because as of Feb 11, it is 7.6% which would not put 40% of Britains population on the dole.

I do not dismiss Regan did good or not... no idea, but that was the turning point of US politics that screwed the US now based on a capitalist system vs. socialist economy. Just prior to Regan, I think Carter (correct if wrong)... seen the future of what was to come on both systems... but corporations had different ideas, ditched one, put in an actor, then got him to sell it hard to the American population, thus engraining it... which is the cause of where the US is today with fiscal policy and being broke... capitalism.

Sure, anyone who saved their $$$ and managed their money well, will be riding this wave out like nothing is really happening within the country... but when 30% - 40% of a country is affected by the Government going down due to such policy... now screwing with what healthcare is, well actually... I believe the US healthcare is so screwed its not even funny, which all comes back to capitalism, cutting red tape, changing laws to profit, being able to sue for ridiculous sums of money, capitalism... all going round and round in circles chasing the tail constantly making poor decision after poor decision.

Most of the world looking in, is actually saying Obama is doing the right things, making the right hard decisions, so that outside countries see the US getting out of this. Yet due to the US history of bullshit media and advertising, engraining capitalism and such things within society, citizens see the changes as bad...

The US is frustrating the world... put it that way. Citizens demanded change, now the right man for that job is implementing the change, citizens are just arguing with him because they don't want the change.

Its like dealing with a person with borderline personality disorder.... I want you to help me, but I won't let you help me.

 

[angel2write]

Are you saying Britain has 40% unemployed at present? That is what they would require to have that dole rate! Because as of Feb 11, it is 7.6% which would not put 40% of Britains population on the dole.

I stand corrected- I had read that in a magazine article a few years ago and was too lazy to look up accurate numbers. My bad.

 

[anthony]

Even the US is only 8.7%.... which don't get me wrong, those are both high numbers... but not disastrous. Ours is 4.9% at the moment... every country is being affected by both the US and EU issues. Australia is normally around the 3% - 4% unemployment at any given time, and the US used to be around 4% - 5% unemployment.

I can certainly see how higher unemployment though puts a burden onto healthcare systems...

 

[njray]

Angel2write,

This health care issue is an important topic. It is a shame you feel hesitant in opening up the can of worms...You have every right to stand of the soap box! (Just check to make sure you are not violating any new wacky laws that may afford you huge fines or prison for speaking your mind).

I am so on the fence with this issue... If design,control and management of the new healthcare system was not going to be full of corruptness which always leads to nepotism and such i think it is a great idea.....

That said do I really trust the politicians or should we say the rich and privileged (not all but look at the numbers). I am not going to go crazy(ikes umm as over the top i could) here but yes the legal system does play a part in the high cost of healthcare. I say that as I know the minute (very small ) cost my x paid for liability and malpractice insurance compared to her salary as she was/is a RN in the PACU unit... ER. I know all the perks we were afforded by other doctors and the health care facilities itself just because she was a nurse. (BTW she received her RN LIC after attending a local community college here in NJ just after 2 years) We did not waste our money on a 4 year institution at 25k a year! It cost us in total about hello parents 7K a year! YES ONLY seven thousand dollars! That is a total of 14k for a RN degree. She was also courted by many facilities prior to graduation because of her quality degree. why? to be honest RN is RN. She was in more demand as the hospitals new the Community college was not full of fluff and the persons that went to the school and graduated wanted to work! .... How come there are years wait for persons to get schooled and lic as a RN? because the colleges are making a fortune from parents!! Oh BTW the hospital paid for her 4 year Bsn and is now paying for her masters as well ALL OF IT....... Plus she gets raises for every degree increase and certification! Oh and BTW I know many DRs from Gp's to Neauro surgeons from Maine to Fla. they are just doing fine I was a contractor that used to work for them and I also invested with them and I new all there financials....I as a small business owner also know the many many tax benefits and breaks they get as health care workers etc............... Now are all millionaires? no! but let me tell u none are shopping exclusively at wal mart.......... I am sick of there whining...Is it a tough profession YES but guess what there are many tough jobs out there in which the persons that perform them do not nearly get as many perks and privileges as they do!

IMHO and personal experiences with the many facets from hospital admins to those that clean the toilets Health care at many levels is way out of control!

You know what? Give free health care to everyone! Guess what? Then when we do not get the same quality we are used to because of costs that is when the veils will be removed that the wealthy and privileged hide behind and they will be pulled down and full disclosures of where all the money and waste goes to in beaurocracies in health care!

Anthony new number out re unemployment up to 9.1 % plus the large number of people that have given up looking for jobs and those that are no longer included in those numbers because they no longer qualify to be included in the overall number because of their unemployment length would put the number closer to 11.6% per the documents I have read........

What the F are we doing in everyones else's business all over the world? I really (honestly) do not know but to be honest i really do not believe i am safer today than before 9/11 and if anything more and more of my individual oportunities are being taken away because of the fraud and continued greed of the top earners in this country. Why does EXXON and BP pay no taxes on there billions of profits? why do chemical and big pharmas pay no taxes on their huge profits... Why do big bus auto and banks pay no or little taxes......because the top small percent that run these companies are scum that is why......... and we are afraid to stand on a soap box?........please is america the same it was years ago.....No! I wonder if really all we are told is true.......look at the politicians look at the scandals....... why do we put them on pedastals.....they should be kissing the butts of all americans not us kissing theirs!

OK I am almost done keyboarding my piece of that as an american. The country I do love! I just want to make sure my kids have the same freedoms and rights as I did (Is that not why my father, son and relatives went into the military) or why the heck did I and am I supporting this country through taxes... I HOPE MORE PEOPLE STAND ON SOAP BOXES JUST LIKE IN THE MIDDLE EAST. Look at all the young people that are educated and out of work or cannot even find work there....Hmmm because there hierarchy are thieves and greedy just like the US politicians itis just we as americans are so wrapped up in ourselves and we are just beginning to see what the Rich have done to us over the last 20 plus years......

Please I hope there are others here that have opinions re the healthcare issue? I love and am open to dialogue and yes I can be swayed just give me information that will make me feel confident in doing so.........

 

[angel2write]

In general, I don't disagree with anything you said, njray. I do have two things I'd like to add.

1) With all the perks and good money doctors and nurses make- why are there never enough of them? One of the frightening things in Canada was that when they really reduced payments & salaries to doctors & nurses, a lot fewer people chose the profession. They had a chronic, critical shortage of health-care professionals. I'm afraid that without all the priveledges and perks, the same situation would result in America. Already, here in our little town, the physicians practices have waiting lists to join! I had to go to a nearby town to find a doc who was accepting patients!

After all, unless you're going to go completely totalitarian, you can't enslave people and order them to become doctors. The only way to get more people to become doctors and nurses is to offer incentives. The waiting list to become a nurse is, I agree with you, totally stupid considering what a shortage of nurses there is in the US. I also agree that this shortage may be deliberate- flooding the market with nurses would mean they got less perks.

2) When you're complaining about the tax-exempt status and incredible profitability of various industries, you are essentially complaining about their monopoly status. They can get away with this because they either have a monopoly on a vital area, or the companies that do exist in competition have banded together and formed a sort of "club" monopoly so they can act like a monopoly when they should be in competition with each other.

One of my fears with a government take-over of the US health care system is that the government will then, essentially, have a monopoly. They will, 100%, call the shots with no competition we can turn to if we don't like the decisions they are handing down. If the government decides a procedure isn't useful or profitable, we'll be SOL. Doesn't the FDA already have nearly god-like powers over the pharmaceutical industry? And doesn't that cause an awful lot of problems for us? I'm not sure putting the government in total control of other aspects of our health care is going to be a good thing.

I wish there was some way they could figure out how to provide care and coverage for people who don't have it. I have friends who don't have insurance & struggle every time their kids get sick if the cost of the doctor is justified. It's sad. I would like this to happen, but I want it to happen in a way that doesn't A) bankrupt our already nearly bankrupt country or B) put too much power of life and death in the hands of government bureacrats who will then toy with our health they way the IRS toys with our taxes. It boggles the mind.

 

[anni]

I think it's rather a sweeping statement to say that the religious right funds all the food kitchens, homeless shelters, etc,etc, across the country. Pretty sure they do not, in point of fact. There's a cross section representative of those who wish to plain old help, hardly exclusive to the religious right.

I lived under socialized medicine for 5 years. The point isn't how good it was, it was that it was there at all for everyone. It WAS actually quite good, but as I said- not the point apparently.

'Hand outs' seems to be another way the under-privaleged get demonized in this country- an extension of the whole 'I have mine, you all better go get yours' mentality Reagan managed to impliment when he swore he'd turn this country to the right all those years ago. He did it, too, bless his charming little socks and Grecian 2000. Obama had a way to fund his plan, which would have paid for itself- this was tacked onto another hideous bill in that idiotic way government functions when it wishes NOT to, and so failed. The pitiful remants of this still helps, and will be paid for successfully. It's just another rabble rousing myth on the part of the political opposition that this will break the country. What has broken the budget is the endless extremists agendas and mindless borrowing already already in place years and decades before Obama ever dared get as far as he did with at least insisting our least fortunate get to patch body and soul together in some way.

Other countries think we're insane and not just a little heartless. Why do we not wish to care for our sick people? It's unanswerable, or at least the answer is to me unthinkable.

No soap box here, just another bleeding heart, bed wetting baffled Liberal.

 

[anthony]

With all the perks and good money doctors and nurses make- why are there never enough of them? One of the frightening things in Canada was that when they really reduced payments & salaries to doctors & nurses, a lot fewer people chose the profession.

This point IMHO, strikes through for all medical based industries... the cost, time and limited persons who actually fit the medical field, should be adequately compensated once qualified IMO... they earned that right to charge extensively to recoup for the sacrifices made and costs, to obtain that qualification.

 

[angel2write]

Even the US is only 8.7%....

The 8.7% is an inaccurate number, though, if you're trying to look at the percentage of people who are receiving public assistance.

I've been web-surfing, just looking at various sorces of information (trying to be more accurate this time) and seeing things like, 1 in 7 people in the US are getting food stamps. I know lots of people who are working, but qualify for WIC (a kind of modified food stamps for women, infants & children to provide supplemental nourishment) or foodstamps. Lots of people in section 8 housing and working. I can't even find numbers on what percent of our population is on Social Security (old age pension) but I'm finding numbers that say it's taking about 5% of our GNP to pay for it every month. Looks like the percent of people on Medicare (old age & disability) is about 14%, and none of them are happy with their coverage. About another 19% (varies a bit by state) qualify for Medicaid, and they're constantly looking for ways to lower enrollment because the states can't pay for it. Or cutting benefits.

See- this is my fear. We put in a national health insurance plan, and they immediately figure out- hey! We can't pay for this! So they start cutting benefits left and right, begrudging people the services they need, etc. And because they've driven private insurance out of business... there's nothing else.

One of the debates raging about Obama's plan is that it will force even very small businesses to pay for insurance premiums for all their people. Small businesses are already struggling and going out of business in the US. To force them to add the burden of health insurance for their hourly workers will close down a big percentage of them. Which means less jobs, more unemployment, and more people on welfare or other public assistance programs.

It all comes down to There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Sooner or later, somebody has to pay for it! I have no problem with putting in some kind of program to pay for health insurance for the indigent. But we MUST figure out how we're going to pay for it first! And the answer can't be print more money (sorry Mr. Obama- printing more money just crashes our currency value and bankrupts the countries who hold our debt) or double our national debt every five years. If we want to have this, we are GOING TO HAVE TO GIVE SOMETHING ELSE UP. That's how budgets work, be they home budgets or national budgets. You can't have everything. You can't please everyone. Money is not endless, and someone eventually has to pick up the tab.