Views on boycotting - Can you admire the work of someone who did something bad? Can you separate personal from business?

Sideways

Sponsor
I think we owe it to ourselves to show compassion to everyone,
This is a beautiful thought (and I mean that in all seriousness).

2 problems as victim of trauma that often comes up:
1) is we are so often just working flat out learning compassion for ourselves - compassion for others, even monsters, sometimes comes too easily, because (for some of us) it is merely a way to replay core beliefs ("I'm the real monster here").
2) compassion doesn't mean listening to someone's music. It doesn't mean forgiveness. And where victims are still living, the expression of compassion ought not invalidate their suffering.

Just thoughts, because I agree with the sentiment, but more as a lofty goal, rather than something I'm doing if I play my old MJ records. When I do that? The reality for me is thinking of his victims is too painful.

But then, for me? Playing MJ's music is now too painful for me (with you on that @somerandomguy - I can't unhear the stories of those victims now that I've heard them, and it's way too personal).
 

Ronin

MyPTSD Pro
That's one bit where I differ...

I wasn't personally victimizing anyone.

And I'm not to be blamed for that, by my choices of music that is or where the musician is, an abuser.

I may choose *how* I listen to that music, online media and not going to buy it. But in case I already bought it? Or it was gifted to me? I'm not doing purges just because situations change from then.

But personally, I like Beyonce and Rihanna over MJ more, anyway :P And soo happily spending all of my cash on them.
 

Sideways

Sponsor
With the revelations this week about 83 "American" companies benefiting from Chinese forced Uighur labor in their supply chains
Very glad to hear this is making the news in the US so that consumers can make more informed, ethical decisions about their consumption habits.

It opens up a real can of worms for consumers if they, individually, decide to start boycotting companies that are frequently accused of employing slave labour, or child labour to increase profitability. Saying goodbye to all Nestle products, for example? Is a tough one for many people.

Information getting out there, though? So that people at least have the option of making an informed choice? Is a fantastic thing. Getting the information out there in the first place is no easy task.
 

Mee

MyPTSD Pro
Very glad to hear this is making the news in the US so that consumers can make more informed, ethical decisions about their consumption habits.

It opens up a real can of worms for consumers if they, individually, decide to start boycotting companies that are frequently accused of employing slave labour, or child labour to increase profitability. Saying goodbye to all Nestle products, for example? Is a tough one for many people.

Information getting out there, though? So that people at least have the option of making an informed choice? Is a fantastic thing. Getting the information out there in the first place is no easy task.


Slave labour is WAY harder than avoiding nestle- I have minimised purchase of premise / packet Food and snacks for years ( not slave labour primarily but farming and animal welfare - but slave labour is more on my radar now so ....) but who picked my fruit and vegetables? Who processed them?

Slavery is a massive issue in every country and I am certain I support it in some goods I have bought in ignorance - maybe in Phone parts? Food?

It’s a really great reason to buy fewer things, and upcycle where possible .

This is something I think about pretty much daily
 

Friday

Moderator
So... I was having a conversation recently about my exHusband

((BRILLIANT musician. Absolutely f*cking brilliant. He’s also a quantifiable genius, which helps, as his genius is for patterns... music, languages, computer code... Genius to the point that every single person on this forum? Is proooooobably using some of his code on a day to day basis -if you own a mobile phone, you’re using some of his code- and most of all y’all have probably heard some of his music, as he’s sold melody lines to at least half a dozen different artists that I know of, and quite possibly a lot more since we split. Snicker. Although he haaaaates that one of them was bought by country artist, every time that song plays on the radio I just crack myself up. I was there when he wrote it, and know how he wanted it played. It was “better” his way, but it’s still gorgeous the way it’s done.))

And the person I was talking to? Asked how badly he wanted to kick my “other” ex’s ass (The wife beating, child abusing, vicious, deceitful piece of shit rapist & psychopath who deserves to be stood against a wall a shot.)

Oh no! Same guy.

They couldn’t wrap their head around that.

First off; that they could be the same person. Secondly? That I could talk about his music or technical skills in such glowing terms.

Talent? Doesn’t make you a good person.
Being a good person? Doesn’t make you talented.
Those are 2 veeeeeery seperate things.

I think NOT being able to compartmentalise/ admire the work of someone who did something bad / separating personal from business... ties into how difficult most people find it to believe that someone they know or like is a rapist, child abuser, wife beater, pedophile, etc.

IE // Fantastic proof that PTSD doesn’t have a corner on the market of cognitive distortions. ;) The all or nothing part, especially. But as has been said before ( :singing: Many times, maaaaany ways :singing: ) People aren’t all good / all bad. Most people are a decided mix of amazing middling terrible. Groups of people? Even more of an amalgamation. One great big swirly f*ckin mess of all things bright and beautiful, and all things pain.
***

As far as boycotting? It’s both my lowest form of giving a f*ck (if I ACTUALLY cared enough to do something, I do more than strike a blow that affects them as profoundly as a butterfly ? kissing a sunbeam... IE sweet f*ck all)... AND is really only about making myself feel good. So while I cheerfully vote with my feet on a regular basis? I don’t hold any illusions about what it’s accomplishing. And am just as likely to get my nails done, instead. Because at least getting my nails done both makes me feel good AND is helping some of my fave refugees put their kids through school. Ditto if I get a massage (although in that case it’s helping my fave librarian make rent, library jobs are surprisingly hard to come by), or a dozen other things that make me feel all warm and fuzzy about myself whilst actually doing something that matters for someone else. 2 birds 1 stone.

On the practical side of things? Put 1,000 people together, and I can guarantee you that you’ll be morally opposed to at least 1 of them, and probably a whole lot more. Just because numbers.

So even if I believed my boycotting accomplished anything? That would mean shutting off my water, power, phone, & Internet. Because all of those companies undoubtedly employ people who deserve -by my way of thinking- to be stood up against a wall & shot. And then also no longer buying food, or clothing, or enjoying any music/movies/tv/books/museums/art en masse. And while we’re at it? f*ck healthcare, education, taxes, streets, & buildings. Because terrible people make all those things happen, and profit from my using them.

Personally? I care more about myself then about whatever oxygen thief made my life -as I know it- possible. f*ck ‘em. MY life is surrounded with books, and music, and medicine, and clean water, and umpteen gazillion amazing, inspiring, and practical things. If I care enough about who a person is to do something about it? That something ain’t gonna be something that hurts me, whilst doing nothing to them. That’s just backwards.

I very much doubt anyone here is going to chuck their mobile in the garbage knowing that every call/text/swipe/keystroke they make is made possible by -and greatly profits/benefits- my exHusband? But if anyone feels guilty about supporting an abuser by using their phone... please... go get your nails done :sneaky:
 
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Sideways

Sponsor
So even if I believed my boycotting accomplished anything? That would mean shutting off my water, power, phone, & Internet.
In a rare move - I heartily disagree with you here!

Soooo black n white.

Trying to make more ethical choices? Doesn't mean you have to be perfect. It just means that when you can, you make choices that align with your values.

An immediate rock solid benefit of this, every single time I pull off a more ethical consumption decision?
I'm living in accordance with my values, which helps me improve my self concept, esteem, and confidence (lifted that from research supporting ACT), helps gives my life a sense of meaning (as opposed to 'nothing I do personally matters'...depressing thought...depressing thoughts are something to avoid since I have a history of Depression!), and gives me a sense of agency (self empowerment, good thing).

It's not an all-or-nothing thing. That's a recipe for failure (or an excuse...you decide!!!!). Deciding "I'm going to make a value-driven decision about my consumption of this thing at this time?" makes for a more value-driven, meaningful life (which helps put downward pressure on things like Depression, which loves Helplessness so much that they made it an official symptom).

So, you don't need to switch to solar, drill a well in your backyard, and learn how to grow and spin your own cotton. Small, value-driven decisions when you can? Is good for you.

Small, value-driven decisions? Also result in things like fruit n veges being labelled if they've been grown locally, by law, here in Australia. Lots of stuff available now? Is only available because a whole lot of individuals, who's choices didn't matter as individuals, added up to make a difference.

You can keep your mobile phone, and still decide to switch radio stations when they play an R Kelly song, without being a hypocrite. Value-driven choices some of the time? Makes for a more meaningful life, where you exercise agency over yourself, more of the time.

Sometimes, you're not gonna care enough, know enough, or be able to. Just because (because you're human).

Other times, making the decision "I may need my mobile phone, but I do NOT need R Kelly playing in my car today" feels good. Not because I've won some kind of battle in Sideways v's R Kelly, but because I've behaved like the choices I make for myself matter.

It feels empowering because it is empowering.

Anyone that tells you it's all or nothing, care about it once means having to care about everything all the time? Pfft! There is no right answer for the whole world. But sometimes, doing the right thing for your own values? Is a big deal. A big big deal.
 
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Ronin

MyPTSD Pro
Thing is...

Not giving a f*ck can be equal living alligned with own values.

I think the point Friday was making (bear with me, I didn't yet read the whole post :p) -

Giving f*cks for the assholes means giving them some of my heart. And the biggest f*ck you one can aim at the truly terrible? Is giving aaall the love to someone worth it... instead of the prick's newest nonsense and uprise it stirs.

It's the living in vengeance filled societies / subgroups equivalent...

I can go break that asshole,
OR I can make my dears amaaazing dinner with candles. During which none fingers will be broken, and my fist won't hurt, and I won't be disappointed f*ck all was achieved and off to another round we go.

Boycotting them means caring for them some way.
I'd rather support their victims...
Directly. Or as directly as can.

Not by dealing with companies that profit off them *and* off the attention people spend on them with the whole boycott gig.
 

Sideways

Sponsor
@Ronin - it's not about focusing energy on them, and definitely not a vengeance thing. Here:
Not because I've won some kind of battle in Sideways v's R Kelly, but because I've behaved like the choices I make for myself matter.
It's about you, your values, and making choices for yourself that reflect those values. Something you're doing for yourself, rather than something you're doing to someone else.
 

skgcalm

Confident
This is a beautiful thought (and I mean that in all seriousness).

2 problems as victim of trauma that often comes up:
1) is we are so often just working flat out learning compassion for ourselves - compassion for others, even monsters, sometimes comes too easily, because (for some of us) it is merely a way to replay core beliefs ("I'm the real monster here").
2) compassion doesn't mean listening to someone's music. It doesn't mean forgiveness. And where victims are still living, the expression of compassion ought not invalidate their suffering.

Just thoughts, because I agree with the sentiment, but more as a lofty goal, rather than something I'm doing if I play my old MJ records. When I do that? The reality for me is thinking of his victims is too painful.

But then, for me? Playing MJ's music is now too painful for me (with you on that @somerandomguy - I can't unhear the stories of those victims now that I've heard them, and it's way too personal).
I agree with you @Sideways. I think I just got triggered. Thinking of how people can make assumptions about another's behavior. How do we stop this stuff before it happens? I guess it was my appeal to the universe that we need to find ways to detect and stop abuse. Again, a lofty goal. But, it has to start somewhere.
 
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