What’s the “benefit” of repeatedly re-enacting challenging relationship dynamics?

[barefoot]

I’ve been sharing some stuff with my therapist recently, which is largely around relationship dynamics.

When I was a kid, I was sexually abused by a doctor. My therapist has known about this for some time and it’s a key context for our work.

Things I have only recently shared with her (after four years of seeing her!):

Later in my teens, I had some weird relationships with teachers. I didn’t ever have sexual contact with any of them, but it was a strange - and, on reflection now, inappropriate dynamic. At the time, to me, it felt like we were in an equal relationship (but of course, we weren’t because they were my teachers - one was the headteacher - and they couldn’t have been and shouldn’t have been equal). I liked them and found them interesting and I thought they liked me and were interested in me. I much preferred spending time with them rather than hanging out with my peers because I never really felt that I properly fitted in with my peers, I got on with them ok but didn’t really have close friendships and I found my peers a bit...shallow and boring, I think! The teachers confided in me a bit about their personal lives and things that were going on at school etc. The relationships felt personal rather than just teacher/pupil. At the time, these relationships didn’t feel wrong but there were definitely some times when I felt awkward or embarrassed about some things they said or did. I think it was maybe a bit confusing and I probably thought I was being silly for feeling embarrassed, so then it was more on me as opposed to me thinking they were doing anything wrong.

As an adult, I’ve had a few friendships where, at some point down the line, the other person wanted things to turn sexual between us. Each of them knew I was in a long term relationship - most of them were too. As friends we had good chemistry and, I will admit, we would have some flirty banter. I enjoyed it, it was fun..for me, it felt like it was part of a safe relationship where we each knew the other was taken and it was just an enjoyable way to communicate and be in relationship with them...it was never graphic, we never talked about anything happening between us and we talked about and sometimes even knew and spent time with each other’s partners. I was so secure in the knowledge that we were in a platonic friendship that it didn’t ever cross my mind that they would think otherwise.

At some point in the friendship, things would take a turn and they would make a pass at me or try to make a physical move on me or would invite me to have a threesome with them and their partner or whatever. It was always really shocking to me and I would feel upset and hurt because I wanted my friendship to be enough for them but then it seemed it wasn’t because they just wanted something sexual.

Each time this happened, I would set down my boundary and say no. I would say how I care about them a lot as a friend and that I really value their friendship and that I really loved my partner, that they were with someone...I would reel out a whole list of explanations and justifications of why it wasn’t ever going to happen. In retrospect, I probably just should have said I didn’t want to (no justifications necessary) and got myself out of there.

But I wasn’t then done with them. I would meet up with them again (no more flirty banter as I didn’t think that seemed wise!) We would have a good time, I would be enjoying their company, feeling connected, feeling relaxed...feeling relieved that, oh good, we’re back on track and what happened last time was just a blip. And then, later in the evening, it would happen again. And I would feel hurt and upset and let down again. And then we would meet up again another time...and so it went on.

Every time I went to meet up with them again, I would hope that, this time, things would be different. That they wouldn’t try to kiss me or try to persuade me to sleep with them or whatever again. That we could just settle into a safe, platonic relationship, where we both valued and cared for each other but that we both understood (and were fine with the fact) that nothing physical was ever going to happen between us. And, of course, nothing ever changed. The same thing always happened. And, when it did, I felt more hurt and more let down and even worse about myself. Somehow then, I would turn it around to somehow being my fault, so then I’d feel more determined to see them again to try to put things right. So, I think with those friends, I kept repeating that whole pattern seeking some kind of reparation or something? That, this time, things would be different and I would then be able to trust that this relationship is safe and genuine and that being in a platonic friendship with me was of value and was enough for them.

Sorry...this is very long...there’s a lot that I am trying to process after my last couple of sessions!

This isn’t how I “do” relationships in general. I am often actually quite guarded and not very deeply connected or attached to people...I can fall out of relationship and just sort of drift away quite easily. Yet, there is also this pattern of keep going back in to this dynamic that I outlined above with some people. And then my boundaries become very porous. And I blame myself for things going wrong and then think I need to put it right but it still just keeps going wrong again.

My therapist hasn’t said a whole lot about it yet as I have spent much of the last two sessions talking at her and getting all this out! We will pick it up again next time.

Things she has said:
- that it sounds like the teachers were grooming me
- that I have been repeatedly getting caught in this dynamic for a long time so we need to explore that together more
- we have briefly talked about me repeatedly going back in these adult relationships because each time I went back it was in the hope of things being different this time and that I was seeking reparation
- she has talked a little bit about feeling that all this relationship dynamic stuff (including the teacher stuff) is re-enactment. I think she means that it links back to the old doctor stuff but will get clarity on that next session.

She said that when we repeat behaviour/re-enact, there is usually a payoff or benefit of some kind to being in that situation/dynamic though it might not be conscious, so I said that I would go away and think about that and bring whatever I come up with to session next time.

I am a little stuck with it though as I’m not really sure what the benefit could have been. I didn’t feel flattered that people (the adult friendships) were making a pass at me. I didn’t have a confidence boost of feeling attractive because a friend wanted to sleep with me. The teacher stuff...I didn’t really perceive that anything was wrong at the time...if anything, it was my fault if I felt embarrassed about anything. So, what did I gain from being groomed by teachers?! I guess I preferred the company of adults to my peers, so by spending time with them, I didn’t have to spend time with my classmates?? I’m not sure if that’s really what she means though...

Was my repeated desire for reparation a benefit? It paid for me to repeat being in that dynamic in the hope that things would end up differently? They never did end up differently though...so if I didn’t get reparation, I guess that wasn’t really a benefit?

Or could the benefit be a bit of a counter-intuitive one...eg, that by keep going back and getting the same result, I was actually gathering “evidence” and “proof” that people weren’t trustworthy and that being in a non-sexual relationship with me wasn’t of value and wasn’t enough? Hence more reason to not be very invested or committed in most relationships. I’m not sure if the benefit or pay-off is meant to be a really positive thing?!

I’m not worrying about being stuck with my homework and I’ll be fine to go next time and tell her that I thought about it but didn’t manage to come up with an answer if that’s the case. But I thought I’d throw it out here in case any of you have any thoughts or suggestions.

What’s the pay-off/benefit to repeatedly engaging with and re-enacting challenging relationship dynamics?!

Any thoughts on the rest of what I’ve written welcome too. I’m only just starting to dip a toe into this whole area and start joining some dots, so I think I have a lot to unpick with my therapist. It feels like we are getting into important stuff...and also feels a bit overwhelming at this point! I feel a bit fragile about it all, though keen to dig into it to see what emerges and where we get to.

Thanks to those of you who have stuck this very long post out til the very end!

ETA: please focus any posts on the title of the thread and on areas around possible trauma re-enactment and possible links between childhood trauma and behaviour in adult relationship dynamics. These are all new areas for me and I’m a bit lost with them, so any insights around those things would be particularly helpful to me.
So, please - no more posts around the rights and wrongs of flirting or the impact of flirting or what happens when you flirt with friends etc. Thanks :)

 

[Virtues]

Just a little feedback on why flirting is dangerous from a guy's perspective. If I'm in a non-sexual relationship with a gal and we become friends first, we have a solid base to build a relationship on. As you become more comfortable so does the other person. It's like the relationship is growing right in front of you. Trust builds, security builds, inhibitions decrease... If you have fun together on a regular basis than your friendship is deeper on so many different levels. Now let's introduce flirting... This is a cue that there is sexual interest (for a guy, from my perspective) As the flirting continues a guy will become more confident until the inevitable happens, a pass will be made. Now if all the stars have been aligned and everything seems right and I make a pass and I'm rejected, I automatically think it's about me (there's something wrong with me). Now everyone is going to process this differently: maybe it was just bad timing (maybe I'll try again), break contact from the relationship all together, stay in the relationship (but it's never quite the same)... all different responses can come from it, but having the relationship remain intact as it was before the pass was made is impossible. Rejection shifts the whole dynamic of a relationship. It violates trust and security and raises inhibitions. The exact opposite of what a growing friendship looks like. This often harbors resentment (whether deserved or not) and just plain and simple changes everything. My best suggestion to you, really explore why you were flirting with these men. What in you needed to have that banter to make the relationship seem meaningful to you? But, blaming it on the men is not really fair; you must see your part in the situation and acknowledge it. After all you said it happened a number of times; what was the common denominator in every situation (you)... I hope the best for you in figuring this out, and just remember there is no "right" or "wrong" in situations like this... things are just what they are... Either you're achieving your desired results or you are not; changing does not mean you were "wrong", it just means you want something different.

 

[Justmehere]

I have replayed relationship dynamics and had a couple of robust trauma re-enactment patterns.

There are a lot of theories as to why trauma survivors get into this pattern. It’s generally considered to be compulsive, and like most compulsive behaviors, people do it even when there is no clear benefit or the negatives outweigh the benefits.

One of the most common theories behind compulsive reenactments is that one is trying to subconsciously master or resolve the past trauma. Another, is that someone is drawn to what is familiar rather than venturing out into the unknown and less familiar.

There are also sometimes practical benefits to less than healthy decisions and patterns. By continuing to engage someone after they’ve repeatedly tried to hook up with you, you don’t he to say a painful goodbye or set boundaries that may have left you feeling lonely. It hurts to have to take space from a friend. Not easy stuff to do.

In other examples, take the abused woman who goes back to an abuser but doesn’t leave because they’ll have to move their stuff or etc. there is usually a “benefit” to staying in a dysfunctional pattern.

I agree with @Florian7051, you haven’t done a darn thing wrong. Your therapist and you are simply recognizing a pattern in relationships that isn’t working out well.

I’m still working on how to get out and stay out of the cycle myself. Being able to notice it and name it when it starts to happen has been super helpful in that regard.

 

[barefoot]

Just a little feedback on why flirting is dangerous from a guy's perspective.

You’re making the assumption that I’m talking about men. I’m female and in a long term relationship with a woman. There are three significant friendships that I’ve had go this way - two were male, one (which was the relationship/dynamic I found most difficult to get out of) was with a woman. I was with my female partner at the time of all of them. All of them knew about her and had met her and, in fact, one was as close a friend to her as he was with me. The three of us had been friends for years. He came to our wedding. We were all light and fun and bantery together.

Now let's introduce flirting... This is a cue that there is sexual interest (for a guy, from my perspective)

This is how you interpret flirting but I don’t think flirting is necessarily a cue that there is sexual interest at all. When I say flirting, I’m not talking about being suggestive and provocative and really making eyes at someone and stroking their hand across the table and me sitting twiddling my hair around seductively and giggling like a teenager and giving them the come on. I’m meaning that we have good chemistry and that there’s some light, cheeky, humorous banter. And, to be honest, even if I did mean something more full-on than that, I still don’t think that flirting is a sure sign that it’s game on. Especially if you are all in long term relationships and you all know each other.

As the flirting continues a guy will become more confident until the inevitable happens, a pass will be made.

Again, I don’t think making a pass is inevitable.

Rejection shifts the whole dynamic of a relationship. It violates trust and security and raises inhibitions.

So does groping someone, so does pinning someone against a wall to shove your tongue down their throat, so does asking someone for a threesome etc when you’ve made it clear that you’re not wanting any kind of physical/sexual relationship with them and when they’re also still busy being great friends with your partner. After the first pass/attempt at a kiss etc, I kept returning to them (which was maybe confusing for them if they thought me seeing them again meant I’d changed my mind) but I was careful each time to ensure that I didn’t engage in any cheeky banter. So, other than the fact that I was seeing them and talking to them again (because I really wanted to get our relationship back on the right track) I know I didn’t do anything to give them cause to think that sex was ever going to happen. All I ever said at that point was no. And still they kept trying and I couldn’t work out why.

really explore why you were flirting with these men.

Yes, I am looking at this as part of what I’m doing with this whole topic - looking to see why/how I have got into this kind of dynamic and what it is that I find alluring about it/what makes it difficult for me to really hold my boundaries and walk away from these sorts of relationships.

What in you needed to have that banter to make the relationship seem meaningful to you?

The banter didn’t make the relationship meaningful, really. Lots of other things were meaningful about the relationships but really, the banter (for me) was just light hearted fun. A group of us out in the pub together having a couple of drinks and catching up and having a laugh...and the whole group is bantering and then little conversations separate off within the group between pairs or threes and then the banter continues...For me, good banter means connection and laughing with people. Obviously, in these relationships, we were not on the same page with that interpretation. The thing I’m really trying to explore in that, is why I kept going back to those relationships hoping for a different outcome and feeling upset when I didn’t get it instead of just counting myself out of the relationship.

But, blaming it on the men is not really fair; you must see your part in the situation and acknowledge it. After all you said it happened a number of times; what was the common denominator in every situation (you)...

I’m not actually blaming anyone here. I’m realising things and asking questions about the relationship dynamics I struggle with - to my mind, it takes more than one person to maketh a dynamic? So, I am definitely looking at what I contributed to the dynamic as well as how I feel about how they acted.

I ended up bowing out of each of those relationships eventually - the last one was about nine years ago - and I made a conscious decision to not engage in light flirting/cheeky banter after that. So, even almost a decade ago, I was looking at my part and how I was responsible. The key thing being, I don’t think I was fully responsible either though I took the blame for it all at the time. The same as I did with the teachers. And with the doctor. (None of whom I ever flirted with!) And with a very close friend from uni who sexually assaulted me a year after we graduated and who I’d never flirted with (and he hadn’t with me ) because that would have been like flirting with my brother!

I appreciate your time and effort in reading my long post and responding @Florian7051
I know you say there is no right or wrong but I do sense some judgement in your post - it feels a bit “well, what did you expect if you were flirting with men?!” But that is perhaps more of a reflection of my own natural instinct to blame myself for everything including other people’s poor behaviour. I don’t generally have any difficulty in working out my own part in something or putting my hand up to what I’m responsible for. I have much, much more of a struggle with being able to see that someone else may have some responsibility in something going not very well.

This post wasn’t a, “I flirted with someone, they tried to kiss me, how could they do this to me?! <wail>” post. I’m actually trying to explore this at a deeper level connected to past trauma to see how I can best move forwards in my own processing and healing around those old sexual abuse/assault traumas.

 

[Virtues]

@barefoot I didn't need to get to the last two paragraphs to understand how you interpreted my post. The simple fact that you interpreted it in a way in which it wasn't intended, should tell you something. Clearly you don't want any insight from me though so I will leave you to your day.

 

[Justmehere]

When I was in another country, a certain way of pointing, meant basically a rude “screw you.” In my own country, it means just “it’s over there.”

I can protest, no, no I’m just pointing! It means nothing!

But when those around me take it as something else, it might be more effective to change my way of pointing than trying to change an entire culture or moralize about how wrong they are, even when justified.

Your defense on no no it means this —- that’s part of what might be keeping you stuck. I get a feeling in your posts that’s like... you are almost driven to prove this time it will mean nothing. This time with this person it will mean nothing to engage in this kind of banter.

I’m not stating you are wrong to do this.

You are trying to prove it should just mean that. And maybe you are totally right. When I point in that other country, I really am just pointing. I mean no offense. Instead, I’m more effective when I accept how others are, and in a way that communicates in how they get the message most accurately.

Banter is fun! Banter builds bonds. It’s a social skill that builds up connection. No it doesn’t mean you and the other person are bonded for life or that you have a deep meaningful relationship, of course not. But psychologically, most people enjoy banter because it build a little bit of a connection.

Flirting is fun! And when I do it, I keep in mind others may take it as an opportunity to ask for more. I accept that. Does it make it ok for them to sexually assault me? Oh hell no. No one has suggested otherwise. Does it make them wrong to ask me out or ask for sex? Much of the time, not really.

I also recognize you may be running into people who take s tiny bit of banter and run with it - ignoring that you already said no once...

But all of that is not the main issue... what you therapist might be picking up on is your drive to prove this time the banter, the friendliness, the flirting means nothing. Nothing. They should not go further. And with your past, it makes total sense to me that you would want to prove that because in the past... people took it way way way too far.

For example, if I had been hurt because I pointed the way I did, the way that meant “it’s over there” to me but “screw you” to others... and let’s say someone assaulted me for doing that... I might be driven to prove, my pointing meant nothing. Absolutely nothing! They shouldn’t have harmed me. And I would be right to declare it meant nothing. Absolutely right to declare they should not have hurt me - even if it did mean something.

And if I kept trying to point my way with people who took it as screw you, to try to prove, it means nothing, I’d risk getting into a trauma rennactment.

I think your drive to prove it means nothing, and this time someone will get that, is possibly (I could be totally wrong) related to trying to resolve the past, not just the present.

Does this make sense? It might be as clear as mud...

 

[Mach123]

U sound like me in that I put myself in lots of situations when younger that would have been a re-enactment, past a certain age I just never really did it anymore. I wanted to, I thought, I actually tried but I guess a different part of me didn't, so I didn't. When situations like you are describing came up, all kinds of things would happen and I'd freeze and disassociate and explain the whole thing away somehow. I was always trying to explain me to me. It was confusing.

 

[blackemerald1]

Hi @barefoot -

I was actually gathering “evidence” and “proof” that people weren’t trustworthy and that being in a non-sexual relationship with me wasn’t of value and wasn’t enough? Hence more reason to not be very invested or committed in most relationships. I’m not sure if the benefit or pay-off is meant to be a really positive thing?!

^^^ This...I can see why this would be the ultimate in pay-off's. But it is a negative pay off. It does not have to be positive at all. It resonates with me. I have done similar. I think I still do it....sometimes. But I am wary of it now....or, more self aware.

I do worry about 'having a laugh' with someone because they might think the wrong thing. It is horrible to have that lingering feeling that I cannot completely relax because the crunch moment is going to come along and I will have to withdraw.

I recall some work colleagues of mine were really friendly and we developed a great working and social relationship. It went down the drain very quickly when they effectively tried to ambush me into a sexual liaison. I was utterly dejected with their response to my 'no'. I tried to fix it by being more useful and more worthwhile but ultimately it all failed. I felt like there was something so completely wrong or lacking within me that my only true use was a sexual relationship. So, I was really good at hating myself over it all.

I do feel de-valued when I cannot maintain a platonic relationship with another person (s) and be sufficiently worthwhile in terms of intelligence, intrinsic human value and any other usefulness except sexual. And then when it doesn't work...disappear, disappointed and re-affirmed in my belief (even if wrong) that this is the 'ultimate' goal everyone has and I hate it and feel affirmed in my disappointment? It's a huge distortion but a big pay-off to be even more remote. Horrible cycle...and one I am still coming to terms with.

And...also it occurred from both genders too who were in committed relationships and knew I was too.....bewildered me all the more and I began to assess ppl (and probably still do) with a view about who may be sexual predators but just much more patient than the stereotypical type that hits mainstream media etc., - Isn't that a fragile way to view ppl???

And I also, like you...I preferred the company of my teachers over my peers even right through university. I never had sexual connections with any of them and they were not grooming me. I was too 'remote' for that in every sense of the word. But still I would rather no company than poor company.

I am interested in this dynamic you have discussed. I am fairly sure it is a lot more common than most ppl are willing to admit.

 

[PTSDin it]

Yea similarly I used to when younger, but I still struggle. I read an article that outlined why trauma bonds are strong in a way I understood it..They talk of chemicals a lot in many articles, blogs, and it's a strong factor for sure, but this one seemed to emphasize abusive childhoods and how intense relationships and circumstances seemed like "love" to someone like me, how all other relationships pale in comparison after engaging in the intense one for a long time, and how there's this unbearable emptiness when relationship has ended-or whatever you'd call it-lol pathology? I had a couple of one-sided, non-relationships like this where I felt like nothing, or I would cease to be without them, even though I didn't have them to begin w/. The chemical stuff didn't factor in as much because I never saw them or was intimate, really IRL. They Still cortisol and dopamine chemicals are a factor. This last one has been, paradoxically really hard to get over. I had it in my head that if I tried harder, employed a different strategy-that I would often abandon haha because I'd get frustrated and lash out-I could "win" them. And boy, what in the world was I thinking I'd win-that's another story. I think I feel compelled to make men who have low empathy to have feelings or empathy for me. I think it stems back from my childhood. I believe my father was a covert narcissist and mom was a co-dependent.

 

[scout86]

This is how you interpret flirting but I don’t think flirting is necessarily a cue that there is sexual interest at all.

I don't think I have any actual answers for you, but I'm really interested in this topic. As far as flirting goes, be open to the possibility that different things mean different things to different people. I have no way of knowing how your "friends" interpret flirting. But then, have you got actual evidence that they see it like you do?

I don't know if those teachers were "grooming" you or not. It sounds like you were probably pretty mature for your age, which might be why it was more comfortable hanging out with them than with your classmates. I wouldn't be surprised if they enjoyed your company, legitimately, and were flattered by it. But it also sounds like they didn't handle the whole "boundaries" thing very well.

Rejection shifts the whole dynamic of a relationship. It violates trust and security and raises inhibitions.

Just as an example of how things can sometimes be completely different.... Probably my best and oldest friend is a guy I met in college. He had some sexual trauma in his childhood and "sex" doesn't exactly mean the same thing to him that it does to most people. (He calls himself a "sex addict", just to give you an idea where he's coming from. I'm not sure that's actually true.) Anyway, we're great friends, and have been for years. And, I'll admit, there's a certain amount of sexual attraction, that's mutual. The thing is, I know how he is and I know that kind of relationship probably isn't going to work. Our values are different, probably mostly because our wounds took us different directions. Anyway, on one, pretty memorable occasion, he made a pass at me. He was in a relationship with someone I respected and who I thought was good for him. I told him "no". I went on to tell him that, if he wasn't smart enough to look out for his relationship with this great woman, I was, and I wasn't going to LET him f*ck it up, no matter what he thought, or how tempting the opportunity. And, if anything, we're better friends now than we were before. We haven't talked about it, but my theory is, where he's coming from, he thinks "sex" is why women value him. He now knows, beyond any doubt, that I value HIM. The pressure is off. I know it doesn't always work that way. In fact, it usually doesn't work that way, because it's a minority of people with the "right" backgrounds. But I think maybe you find out who your friends really are when you see what happens after you say "no".

 

[barefoot]

I can’t get my quote function on my iPad to work right at the moment, so...

@Justmehere - it’s interesting that you mention that these kinds of patterns are compulsive and that kind of makes sense to me. Because, while I was in those relationships, the draw to go back and see them again was so powerful. Even though I knew it probably wasn’t the best decision and even though my partner was like “don’t go and see them again, the same thing will happen and you’ll get upset again” the pull to see them again was incredibly compelling. Because, even though there was a part of me that felt hurt or disappointed that they hadn’t accepted my no and were still trying to move things in a direction I didn’t want, I really felt like I couldn’t stay away from them. So, that idea of compulsion resonates.

And, you’re right - continuing to engage with someone does mean not having to have a painful goodbye or not having to lose the space of all the positive things you had in that relationship. I don’t think I am very good at “proper” endings. I usually just sort of drift off, away from rather than we have a firm, explicit, ending. Two of these relationships, I did just that. I just drifted away. The woman...in the end, she did something way beyond what I was willing to tolerate (and probably beyond what I was prepared to hold myself responsible for and make excuses for her about) and that was the last straw for me and I knew we were done...so I then had to uninvited her to my wedding. Yikes!

Tbh, I’m not sure whether your second post does make sense to me or not! Are you meaning that me repeatedly going back and finding myself in the same situation and me then always saying my no again and insisting that the relationship was platonic and explaining again how I didn’t feel that way about them and that I considered them a great friend and they mean a lot to me but it wasn’t ever going to be that we’d end up in bed together...do you mean that was a bit of a test? That I was (albeit unconsciously) setting them up to test whether the boundaries of the friendship were solid and safe? I’m not sure whether you mean that or not, but that does make sense to me, I think.

I’m not sure that I have a real drive to prove that my banter means nothing, if that’s what you mean? I think I’ve written a lot about banter and flirting in this thread because I wanted to be honest about what I was contributing to the dynamic while at the same time wanting to clarify and define what I actually meant by them in terms of what I did and wanting to explain where my head was at in these relationships/situations at the time. I don’t think I was focused on trying to prove to them that my banter meant nothing. I don’t know...will think about that more...

I think it’s more of a drive to try to prove that, this time, they will realise that being my friend will be enough instead of me ending up feeling like I am only worth being in a relationship with in sexual terms (a distorted thought, I know!)

But, yes, I can see that, whatever the driver is in me having kept in this dynamic for so long, is likely related to resolving the past. That does make sense and is something for me to reflect on...

 

[PTSDin it]

Idk why, but banter means a lot to me..I had a whole non-thing around getting someone to talk to me, only to have it end up devolving into dick pics. Not sure why I kept at it. I'm a strange bird, for sure.