What About Just Being There?

[sun seeker]

I didn't say I did it WELL yet!

You mean you didn't call yourself an idiot well yet?

 

[shimmerz]

You mean you didn't call yourself an idiot well yet?

Clearly not well enough because I KEEP doing it! I feel like I will offend you if I call myself what I REALLY believe I am. That is for another posting.

There are good and bad things about hanging with the cool peeps who 'know' about this shit and their making commentaries. No secrets around here my friends. :whistling: :wideeyed::woot: :rolleyes:

 

[sun seeker]

Clearly not well enough because I KEEP doing it!

Well, they do say practice makes perfect. Therefore, you might want to think about which skills you want to perfect. Just a suggestion.:whistling:

I feel like I will offend you if I call myself what I REALLY believe I am.

Probably. I'd love you anyway though.

 

[Valentino]

Expanding on the socialization angle, where shame is an integral emotion for social learning and function. What if PTSD is seen as a failure to re-socialize?

Socialization is the process by which children and adults learn from others. We begin learning from others during the early days of life; and most people continue their social learning all through life (unless some mental or physical disability slows or stops the learning process). Sometimes the learning is fun, as when we learn a new sport, art or musical technique from a friend we like. At other times, social learning is painful, as when we learn not to drive too fast by receiving a large fine for speeding.

Natural socialization occurs when infants and youngsters explore, play and discover the social world around them.
Planned socialization occurs when other people take actions designed to teach or train others -- from infancy on.

Natural socialization is easily seen when looking at the young of almost any mammalian species (and some birds). Planned socialization is mostly a human phenomenon; and all through history, people have been making plans for teaching or training others. Both natural and planned socialization can have good and bad features: It is wise to learn the best features of both natural and planned socialization and weave them into our lives.
--- source: Link Removed

So with developmental trauma, there is a care-giver that actively hinders the natural socialization process and also distorts the planned socialization process based on their own personal triggers and/or mental illness. This leads to disorganized attachment and a child with wrong, ignorant, and less than ideal functional socialization skills (the ability to learn from personal experiences, and relational/social interactions). Codependent or counter-dependent strategies develop to mask and cover up (shame) this sort of 'socialization ignorance', and can look quite functional on the surface. But inevitably trauma and life stresses come along, exposing the limits of codependent coping strategies, and then PTSD results because of failure to re-socialize. What if PTSD is simply due to lacking the skills to resocialize, to function in society with behaviors that fit within the social norm??

But the pain of stigma and social banishment then comes in, because society is not very kind or understanding to people with mental illness, and don't fit within social norms.

Socialized people tend to react with carrot/stick socialization (positive/negative), and if that fails, society tends to double down with the negative socialization stick with harsher punishments. People with PTSD intuitively know that this is the social norm, so they tend to self-isolate, instead of having to deal with eventual rejection due to their failure to fit-in, learn and adapt (re-socialize).

When people face uncertainty and unpredictable behavior they typically react with 3 methods:

• negative socialization - judgement, blame and overt shame [fight, RAGE]
• positive socialization - rescue, comfort, support, distract, cover-up with positive feelings [flight, PANIC/GRIEF]
• social abandonment - speechless, create distance, change subject, dismiss, dissociate, escape [freeze, FEAR]

I think that socialization pressure has increased with modern society, with standardized education, a top-down socialization approach that caters to the masses, and tends to ignore the minority of misfits. With modern schooling, everyone learns similar curriculum at the same age from a teacher. In the past schooling was more peer-to-peer and relational, a class room would have students of different ages, with students included in the process of teaching and learning from and with each other. The old method promoted more learning from peers and direct experience, while the current method reinforces learning through rote memorization and submitting to authority. The work world and careers have changed with modernization. Now jobs are all about specialization, people go to school with very specific degrees and accumulate a resume of specialized work skills, and do very specific work. In the old days, people would learn through apprentice-ship or they would work with parents and siblings on the family farm or business. Apprentice-ships create a deeper and relational learning and socialization skillset.

So with the current modern mental health model, it also has gone the route of specialization, and also with isolation and secrecy with the 'confidentiality' focus. This excludes community and relational learning and socialization. It is also a top-down approach with therapist talking down to patient. Often with the therapy models treated like sacred theology, the model is by default correct, and the patient is by default doing it wrong or not working hard enough. The patient must be the one to change and fit into the model. There's very limited customization and personalization. And there's very limited focus on relating, life skills, learning to learn, communication skills, basics of living, etc.

social abandonment - speechless, create distance, change subject, dismiss, dissociate, escape [freeze, FEAR]

That would certainly describe how most significant people in my life have related to me over the years. Is this from your own observation Valentino?

My personality temperament is more anxiety based, so I have lots of experience with all varieties of freeze/FEAR response. It also has a tendency to influence others to respond in like kind, with speechlessness, change subject, dismissing, awe, etc. But I also deal with negative and positive socialization responses too. My parents tended to default with more negative socialization methods, traditional Chinese culture actively uses shame and emotional warfare to socialize children.

When people face uncertainty and unpredictable behavior they typically react with 3 methods:
Negative socialization, Positive Socialization, and Social Abandonment

Valentino are these the people who are 'affected' that you are speaking about or the witnesses (supporters).

My observation is that most all socialized people react this way. Supporters might try to react with more positive socialization, but it often ends up being enabling victim-hood. A more effective way might include a combination of treating the other person like it's 'normal' (calm presence/under-reacting instead of panic/rush), along with an attitude towards growth, and some sort of education to learn from embodied experience and emotion.

I wonder at times if it 'takes one to know one' in order to get that acceptance.

This might be where relational and collaborative learning fits in. It's a big missing link that's often missing in the therapy model. You can learn from a book or from a teacher. But there's some other type of learning and connection that comes from someone who's had personal direct experience of trauma and PTSD.

 

[Tinyflame]

So with developmental trauma, there is a care-giver that actively hinders the natural socialization process and also distorts the planned socialization process based on their own personal triggers and/or mental illness. This leads to disorganized attachment and a child with wrong, ignorant, and less than ideal functional socialization skills (the ability to learn from personal experiences, and relational/social interactions). Codependent or counter-dependent strategies develop to mask and cover up (shame) this sort of 'socialization ignorance', and can look quite functional on the surface. But inevitably trauma and life stresses come along, exposing the limits of codependent coping strategies, and then PTSD results because of failure to re-socialize. What if PTSD is simply due to lacking the skills to resocialize, to function in society with behaviors that fit within the social norm??

Have to say I don't think it helps but I don't think it's the cause.

I also think developmental trauma can occur in other ways than through a caregiver's personal triggers +/or mental illness. (Neglect for example).

But hey what do I know. :rolleyes: :eek: :)

 

[The Albatross]

Valentino's bit above in #53 certainly fits for me.

Edited... either I'm whack or something fundamentally changed. Damn it now I have to back track.

Eh no, it was Junebug's post.

 

[shimmerz]

What if PTSD is simply due to lacking the skills to resocialize, to function in society with behaviors that fit within the social norm??

This is certainly how it feels to me. I feel like I am not allowed to be anything but 'the same' as everyone else. I was never very good at that and it disturbs me the ridiculing that happens when one is not 'the same'. I don't want to be the same. I want to be ME.

But the pain of stigma and social banishment then comes in, because society is not very kind or understanding to people with mental illness, and don't fit within social norms.

I am going to have to say that society is not very kind or understanding to people who are different; which I am going to go out on a limb here and say that that doesn't necessarily mean 'mental illness'.

This might be where relational and collaborative learning fits in.

I so agree with this. I believe we are cloned in order to work for 'the machine' and if we don't fit, we don't have value. Small businesses are being shut down, people have difficulties getting jobs without 'higher education', we are all supposed to be this 'cookie cutter' model. But that is another post.

I also think developmental trauma can occur in other ways than through a caregiver's personal triggers +/or mental illness. (Neglect for example).

I absolutely agree with this. I also believe that those who lose their parents (death), an injury or hospitalization, to either parent or child and of course, adoption fit in here as well. Regardless of how good the adoptive parents are. I feel like attachment is huge is this.

 

[kath3141]

rauma is exacerbated for most of us by isolation and shame when those around us don't understand and expect us to be the same as before the trauma or, in the case of developmental trauma where there is no "before" to act normal and "just get over it". These expectations retraumatize us as often as not, even if they may be well intended but naive on the part of supporters (and not-so-supportive people) who just don't get it.

This is the biggest issue for me with my family. Sums it up well..

 

[Changing4Best]

My best friend is PTSD undiagnosed, but she has a trauma in which her baby was hurled against a wall and killed. The baby was about a month old. She was attacked by the baby's murderer as well. She was trying to protect her baby, of course. The attacker was the baby's father.

Anyway, we have not been able to get together for the last 6 months or so. She lives 12 miles from here, but neither of us has a car. Sometimes it is hard for our support person to just be there! How I wish we could.

 

[Valentino]

Unpacking and exploring deeper aspects of shame is usually very challenging to talk about. Occasionally I can present it in a 'palatable to the masses' way, but often that's not deep enough to be of much practical use. I grew up in a shame based culture, which contributed to my ability to tolerate it and also learn it's positive adaptive aspects. But also having an Aspergers' brain (high functioning Autism) when I share too much from my un-socializable natural self, I sense social shock from others, or other times I end up on receiving end of unconscious triggers. From repeated exposure and social exclusion I have gotten used to the feeling of not fitting-in.

But I am a bit torn inside. Understanding more about shame and socialization has helped me better function, interact and communicate in relationships. Also I see so many common PTSD issues are related to simple misunderstandings and lack of relationship with shame and lack of socialization skills.

Ideally the more I open up emotionally, the more I could connect with others. But typically the more I open up emotionally, the more other's notice and feel the deep intense sense of alien-like 'not fitting in' and state of disorientation that is a normal part of my emotional being. Me being real, by itself can shock or trigger others.

Maybe socialization pressures and internal shame does not have to be the enemy? What if the reason shame keeps coming up, is because it's part of an inner guidance conscience trying to assist with grief, learning from loss, and adapting for the future?

Enough of my personal ranting, here are some videos that might address things better:

Animated video describing key points from social neuroscientist Dr. Matthew Lieberman's book "Social - Why Our Brains Are Wired to Connect":

Baby's responses to Still Face Experiment by Dr. Edward Tronick, as earlier research supporting the theory that we as humans are naturally born to be bond, attach and become socialized:

This is a more recent version but with a WARNING as some people find this one more 'creepy' and difficult to watch through:

Ironically I can relate to the still face mothers, I have very limited and muted facial expression (especially with the side of my eyes), and often I'm dumb-founded on how to express and respond to others. So unintentionally I probably trigger discomfort in others because I don't emotionally express and validate within predicted social norms.

btw. My ranting above was shared more to add context, not really looking for emotional comfort or support. Just to emphasize how much I deeply care about the topic: socialization, shame, isolation suffering, feeling normal, consciously being present for self and others, etc.