Relationship What Am I Doing Wrong? Outsider's Perspective Needed...

[Hojay]

Could you explain how he 'co-creates' the situation?

Fair question. From my perspective, if he is incapable of owning up and taking responsibility for his hurtful behavior, as well as doing his best to get a handle on those outbursts, he is co-creating the problem by putting me in a position that makes it very unlikely HE will get what he needs. Just like I am aware that pressing him in certain moments or not giving him space will ensure I won't get what I need, he must understand that his disrespect and hurtful comments will ensure he won't get what he needs. If that makes sense.

Because it's my brother not my lover, I can trust that but I realise it's different with a partner.

Thank you for sharing the story about your brother - it's heartening to see that, at the end of the day, love is what matters. It's great you could "see" each other in that way. The issue here, of course, is the comment I quoted. It's quite different with romantic relationships, as - in my eyes - unconditional love is reserved for our children (other family is often included, but also in different ways.) To operate from unconditional love in relationships can open us up to co-dependence at best, and abuse at worst. It's a different kind of love that needs to be applied.

That's why I think an outside counsellor could help, esp one who deals with trauma and PTSD.

Yes, that's what needs to happen. I think the understanding is essentially there - but we have both become hardened and self-righteous in our stance. I've never been this firm and uncompromising, it's not in my nature, but I'm afraid that what's being asked of me is to become either co-dependent or leave. Both are horrible options.

I'm just saying pick your battles. I know part of my issues and needs were because of my ego.

Wow, you have described the entire dynamic, from my inner dialogue to his conundrum, in its epically accurate entirety. Kind of blown away - I don't feel so nuts right now. Thank you. What I quoted above is where I get stuck. To me, wanting to be treated with respect, to be heard and not dismissed is not really an ego thing - it's a matter of having a balanced relationship. It's a battle very much worth fighting. I pick my battles in terms of many things. We are long distance right now and I can't see him as much as I'd like to because of his symptoms - I don't battle him on that. It's hard to make plans about other things, I don't battle him on that. But when he blanket disrespects my perspective, or dismisses the fact that I am a human being with feelings and emotions, and instead makes everything about him, that's a battle I can't not fight.

I'm sure I make mistakes, I'm not perfect. But I'm very afraid to keep calibrating my own needs and behaviors, seeking the problem within myself, as that is the first step to becoming complicit in an essentially abusive dynamic. At the end of the day, I'm afraid of becoming co-dependent. Maybe I misunderstand what that means or maybe there really are only two choices: become co-dependent or leave?

 

[Mytime]

I just have a question. I want to make sure I'm understanding right. You said he apologizes, does he take it back?

 

[Hojay]

@Mytime, he does apologize...somewhat. I say somewhat because 1. It often seems he doesn't know what he is apologizing for (i.e. says, "I'm sorry" but doesn't get into what he may have done wrong,) and 2. The apology is always followed up with a giant BUT.

After some of the things he's said, the sheer audacity and hurtfulness of it, I would expect a person to pick up the phone first thing and say, "Don't say a word, I am so incredibly sorry. I did not mean XYZ, I acknowledge that I said XYZ, and I hear what you wanted to say and how you feel. There is no excuse." No BUT you did this, you said that, you didn't let me calm down after I insulted you. That can be discussed AFTER I have the feeling I received a good apology. But the only thing that "really" matters is that I don't let him calm down. That's not an apology for me. I'm the only one picking up the phone first thing apologizing profoundly and at length for not letting him calm down....it's backwards.

 

[Mytime]

I can only share what I have learned in counselling and about myself. I'm the same as you when I apologize. I say what I feel I did wrong, I acknowledge it to give validation in my apology. My husband apologizes differently and I think part of it is a guy thing. It how their brain works. He'll say, sorry for what I said. Done!
Now this is what I learned. That is how he apologizes and what I didn't notice is he would also put some actions in there too. But to him, he said sorry! Me) I'm like, I say sorry, I acknowledge my mistake to give you validation. What, the f**k, all I get is sorry! Yes because that's how I apologize. This is where Ego comes in. Because who's right and who's wrong. That's where counselling helps. You learn to understand each other's perspective and put into place, something you both can live with. Like I said, he put actions in his apologizes, that I didn't notice. We can't expect others to handle things the same way as we would, but learning to compromise and communicating you can come to an agreement that can serve both. As for the excuses he gives of why he said the hurtful things. Well I feel it's to help him with the feeling of shame,ect. I think counselling could help him with that. The biggest part I have learned is. Everyone handles things differently. The Ego can tell you, your ways the right way. But the truth is, we all handled things our own way. But learning, excepting each other's strengths and weaknesses, compromising, needs can be met on both ends. It's hard work and it takes time and patients.

One thing I would like to share with you. When I have something I need to talk to my SO about I will email him. I will write what I'm feeling and need to talk about it. I will do this a day or two before we talk and here's why.
1) It gives him a chance to read and reread if he needs to. It helps him feel comfortable and in control because he has an understanding and has time to process the information. My hubby at times has a hard time processing, which can lead to frustration which comes out as anger.

2) If he doesn't understand something, he can ask questions and then have time to think and process.

3) It lessons the fight,flight,freeze. My SO is a firefighter, so this is big for him.
I know I have rambled on but I hope in some way it has helped, If not sorry for the long read, lol.

 

[Buttercup]

@Mytime your email strategy sounds like a great one! I think it might feel like less of an attack in that way rather than going in verbally with a problem and they feel attacked because often, to them, it may be coming out of the blue. And/or also to give them time to process as you say.

 

[Mytime]

:hug:

 

[Hojay]

That's a really great idea re writing things down in an email, @Mytime! Though I wonder - if text messages are considered "not letting him calm down" wouldn't a thorough email detailing my thoughts be the same?

Just great feedback all together, thank you! What do you mean by:

he put actions in his apologizes, that I didn't notice.

I think mine has been trying hard not to have outbursts, but he has them. And it's unacceptable. Much more so if all I get is "I'm sorry." But I understand what you mean when you say that we all handle things differently. While I'd like to have a thorough acknowledgment, he thinks it's okay to say "I'm sorry." Thing is, it would never fly if I just said "I'm sorry" after hurting his feelings. I'll feel the repercussions (I am now) but my hands are tied in making him feel it the other way around...that's why I say, either turn co-dependent or leave.

I think couples therapy will help. I'm scared, however, that it will all come back to how much I need to respect his boundaries (which is really hard sometimes, it would be for anyone!) while he's getting a free pass disrespecting mine.

 

[Buttercup]

I like the explanation of how our egos can get in the way too. I think that's very true.

 

[Hojay]

I like the explanation of how our egos can get in the way too. I think that's very true.

Yes, I agree. It's definitely something to think about regarding conflicts like these - how much our egos are at play in perpetuating the problem.

I have to say though, I read something a long time ago, sadly I don't remember where, but it stuck with me: In order to give up your ego needs, you need to have an ego in the first place.

That struck me - as someone who has had a track record of less-than-fair relationships, possible problems with co-dependence, and people pleasing, I suddenly realized that I wasn't doing some great, fair, helpful, and possibly spiritual thing by calling my ego needs into question - I had no ego at all! I would have never admitted that to myself at the time, but I wasn't listening to myself. I was a pushover all too ready to seek the problem within myself - all the way down to pushing my ego (which is an important part of our psyche!) aside.

Now, of course there are ways to healthily and confidently be able to set one's ego aside. But I think it's a more problematic thing to attempt to do in relationships than we may realize sometimes.

 

[Buttercup]

It is very problematic and very difficult to do as well! Not easy stuff. Just being aware of it is an important step. We do have to be careful not to push ourselves aside, which I think for many of us is easy to do because we want to support and care and please. But we also need to be able to see the bigger picture and other perspectives which is also not easy to do.

Lately I have had to work on my anxiety level when he is pushing me away or shutting me out. It's very hard! That anxious feeling is what makes us want to text and call and get to the bottom of it and just fix it! We really just want it all to be ok. So stepping back and taking deep breaths - breathing that may require a few days or even weeks (in my situation)! It's tough, man!

 

[Hojay]

That anxious feeling is what makes us want to text and call and get to the bottom of it and just fix it! We really just want it all to be ok. So stepping back and taking deep breaths - breathing that may require a few days or even weeks (in my situation)! It's tough, man!

Yes. Spot. On. I hear you.

Reading that in this context made me think, hm, maybe it's not so much a matter of seeing how our ego gets in the way, but strengthening our healthy ego and saying, "ya know what? No with me." Meaning, not with me trying to pick up your pieces. Then letting them do their thing without having to fix it. I am realizing that a lot of the anxiety I am having that makes me want to fix it are abandonment issues. Plain and simple - I'm afraid 1. He is done or 2. I have to be done and leave him (which, even though it's not straight up abandonment, but the other way around, does somehow feel like it.) So that's something I'm looking at with my therapist - also as a reason for why I can't keep my own boundaries straight here and show him the real consequences of his hurtful actions. I think there are plenty of times I should have down right stopped talking to him.

 

[Mytime]

That apart of relationships all around. Respecting each other's boundaries.
You can't control others actions, only your own. As far as emailing, you do it when things are calm. If he is in fight,flight,freeze anything you say will feel like an attack. I know this is hard but you do have a choice. You can keep going in a circle like you are now or you can change it. It takes time and patients but it is there. If he starts calling you names, remove yourself. Show him, it you want me here, speak to me with respect. If he's not excepting your apology, 'that's on him. You Can't do anymore.
I know how hard and confusing this can be and I send you big hugs :)