Who Would I Be If I Gave Up Lying?

[ms spock]

I imagine that being uncertain and untrusting has a lot to do with the need to lie. Maybe you grew up learning that what you were thinking and/or feeling was 'wrong'? That makes it hard to learn to trust yourself. And then, sometimes, the answers you learn to give are not the truth because the truth is never the 'right' answer.

That is it. I did grew up learning in a profound and deep manner that what I was thinking and feeling was so terribly wrong and dangerous. You nailed @scout86

I think this is related to feeling so uncertain about myself and my thoughts, feelings and everything. I have to fight myself to even get close to this stuff and it takes a long, long, long time to get there.

My thinking and feeling was punished without mercy, with profound sadism, humiliation and shaming. It is hard to even describe it.

My sister rang me a few weeks back and told me that sometimes she doesn't feel real. I couldn't even respond to what she said because I so get the space that she is talking about. A profound, deep, visercal invalidation of even existing, nevertheless having thoughts, feelings and a range of emotions and perceptions.

 

[ms spock]

I'd be willing to bet that your truth would be the most interesting answer of all.

That would be a significant moment. I think I am on my way here/there. I cannot imagine how much my life would change if I got to this point. I do so hope that I will get there.I am working on it, but sometimes it seems continents away. I could go back to my writing.I could be present in the world. I could do my life's purpose. It would be a moment for me. It would be...

 

[ms spock]

I think it's something of an accomplishment to recognize that, let it be a 'real thing', and respond accordingly. All this stuff is a lot to work on, it only makes sense to be sure you're functioning as well as possible while you do it.

I wasn't going to go and blow it because I was tired. I was so exhausted. I woke up and thought I just have to get through teaching for the day. In this instance it was the wise choice.

I imagine that being uncertain and untrusting has a lot to do with the need to lie. Maybe you grew up learning that what you were thinking and/or feeling was 'wrong'? That makes it hard to learn to trust yourself. And then, sometimes, the answers you learn to give are not the truth because the truth is never the 'right' answer.

Once again yes - these four sentences resonate with me. I could say so much more about this.

I could never have a life because I couldn't be trusted to actually make a right decision or choice. It is so sad. I still struggle with this. But at least I can be more honest about it now.

Everyone isn't going to feel that way. One of the most interesting things I've learned lately is that that fact actually isn't dangerous. It can be ok and it's possible to live with it with no bad fallout. (Who knew? LOL) You're going to get this!

I really hope so. I am working hard on it. But I slipped back into comfort eating today and fighting within myself, and struggling so hard. So I am going there - it is just taking as long as it takes. I guess I kind of am here, but I still don't trust myself yet. And that is just going to take time.

 

[scout86]

I mentioned this in another post somewhere earlier this week. (And feel like I didn't do a very good job of explaining it that time either.)

I heard a radio program recently that was talking about the things children are supposed learn in their family system. Part of that is that, when something troubles you, the people around you pay attention, care, etc. You're suppose to learn that you, and how you feel about stuff, matters. The adults are supposed to pay attention to the feelings of the child.

A light kind of came on for me. That's how it works in families where the adults are basically 'normal'. The adults have the capacity to do that. At least 'good enough'. If you grow up around, for example, narcissists, you're going to learn something completely different. They aren't going to pay attention to your needs because they aren't capable of even noticing any needs beyond their own. So the child internalizes a completely different world view. EVERYONE grows up thinking the world view they developed is the only one there is, until they learn differently. What I'm beginning to understand is that the responses you reasonably expect from a narcissist are not the responses you get from someone else. The responses you get from someone with some sort of pathology are going to be pathological. The responses you get from more or less 'normal' people are going to be something else again. I guess it's important to learn to be flexible and open to the possibilities. And it's probably also important to learn how to tell who you're dealing with.

One way or another, the shame in all this isn't really yours to bear. You learned what you were taught and had no choice in that. Now you're making the choice to learn new and better ways of doing things. That's HUGE. A lot of people never see the need to open their minds to new ways of doing things and even those who do don't always have the courage to make that choice.

I just want add that it's my guess that we see a lot of the authentic @Ms Spock here. And I really like her! You have a unique perspective and way of expressing yourself that I both enjoy and value. I think there are probably many people who feel that way. There are probably also many people who WON'T feel that way. :) One of the lessons I've been learning over the past months is that that can be ok. A little anxiety provoking maybe, but ok. Turns out your life, as free adult anyway, actually DOESN'T depend on coming up with exactly the 'right' answer to any given situation. You can come up with your very own answer and other people can deal with it as they chose and you can just move on along your very own path, unharmed.

 

[ms spock]

There are probably also many people who WON'T feel that way. :) One of the lessons I've been learning over the past months is that that can be ok. A little anxiety provoking maybe, but ok. Turns out your life, as free adult anyway, actually DOESN'T depend on coming up with exactly the 'right' answer to any given situation. You can come up with your very own answer and other people can deal with it as they chose and you can just move on along your very own path, unharmed.

See not having the right answer = Death, destruction, humiliation, annilhation - prepared to be willing to believe you but stuck in that visercal place of fear of doom. I am creating more new neural pathways each day but I am not quite there for that one...yet.

 

[shimmerz]

, destruction, humiliation, annilhation

This, I think, when one resolves this.... goes through an annihilation of the psyche that was built upon lies and programs and misinformation and comes out the other side is when freedom actually presents itself as an option. The only way to get past it is to go through it. And it ain't an easy process. I think it is the only way one can prove to oneself that what you were taught, and what really IS are very different things.

 

[scout86]

I thought the same thing. Or, maybe, it would be more accurate to say I felt and often still feel the same thing. Like you say, "feelings are not facts". It's a process. It started with my T going on about how he thinks I should be "more of my real self, more of the time." He made it feel tolerably safe to experiment, with him. That seemed ok. So I decided to use this forum as a place to experiment. (It helps me a lot to think of it as 'experimenting'." There are a lot of times I log on here after I've ventured an opinion, kind of terrified to see how angry everyone is going to be, knowing everyone hates me...... and that hasn't actually happened. Yet. A big part of me is still sure the universe is playing an elaborate trick on me, waiting for me to trust this new way of seeing things so it can REALLY pull the rug out from under me. LOL But, it's an experiment?

 

[The Albatross]

You do realize right that you're coming into this on the back end of a string of successes? What is the "real" issue here? Fatigue? Needing to have some quiet time? Part of recovery is learning how to gauge these things. I got no problem with doing a Hansel and Gretel - backtracking before I sign up for distress and following the trail to where my train may have jumped the track these days.

Spock why aren't you doing your re-reads? When this mindset settles in for a play, I reread to keep a self check on where my head's been and what was going on. Perhaps it is time for you to endeavor to cultivate resilience. Emotional regulation will only get you so far ya know.

 

[Amack]

Upfront let me say I am a supporter. So If I am not supposed to be commenting then shoo me away!!:happy: and its all good.

I read particular sufferers threads bc mine whilst he has made massive gain does not open up about the real deep stuff. You sharing Ms Spock helped me to read what I have suspected my sufferer having to do most of his life. You put into words what he can not right now. So, thank you.!! With that said, the fact you recognize SO much and had the ability to articulate it speaks volumes to how healthy you are. I realize you may not feel this way but trust me reading it face value, I read someone who has made great strides and is VERY BRAVE and very strong to push through to this point. Again, thank you....

much love,
a supporter

 

[Sideways]

Learning to trust yourself, overcoming shame: 2 reasons that you end up lying, and they're both huge recovery issues to overcome. So be patient with yourself.

The lying itself, almost seems like a form of self-harm. Using it to avoid shame, but it ends up doing the opposite, and using it to deal with overwhelming thoughts and emotions. To me, looking at it that way, stopping the urge to lie doesn't have to mean going straight to the truth. Maybe that's just too hard for now.

The possible alternative is to focus on just not lying. If you can't answer a question without lying, or you're feeling the urge to lie, stop, breathe, and don't. Don't answer the question, don't say anything if you need to. There are a lot of default answers you could replace the lies with that don't require you to launch into the truth if you're finding that too confronting.

I don't know, what was it like for you?
Sorry, I missed all of that, I'm too tired to think straight right now.
My brain is porridge right now, tell me about your experience...
Sorry, I have to go.
I can't answer that - can I get back to you?
I'd like to come back to this later - how's your wife?
Etc.

Task 1: practising not lying.
Task 2: practising sharing the truth.

 

[sedna]

@Ms Spock I have had this same issue, but I have thought of it as hiding in plain sight instead of a lying problem.

I'm in in person therapy more often now and it's been one of the hardest things for me to deal with because its been a lifelong ingrained survival issue. We werent given choices about whether it would be okay to disclose abuse or not, we just knew it wasn't okay to be honest.

Not feeling authentic with anyone, even my closest friends my entire life, because there were reality ' no go zones' had made me feel invisible and like a fraud a lot of the time.

Mostly my habit wasn't outright lies, it was altering things to be somehow sideways from where they really were.

An example would be, instead of telling someone my first car was an old blue volkswagon, I'd tell them it was an old green volvo. Both German cars and similar color. I'd tell someone I went to college, but reverse my major and minor degrees and say I went to the school my best friend went to instead of mine.

On the rare occasions someone caught on to this, I felt total humiliation. Its impossible to explain why you'd do something like that and it made me feel stupid. I may have out grown that if I hadn't married someone that also required constant deception to live with, but maybe not.

I feel total exposure and vulnerability when I disclose sometimes simple facts that are totally mundane. Its painful, and the weirdness of it makes me feel crazy and hopeless.

Sometimes the more personal facts people know bother me a lot less than if they figure out I had toast for breakfast instead of cheerios. Its not a carb issue, why the hell didnt I just say cheerios instead of changing it to toast? You dont want to be a grown up and look someone in the eye who just realized that you did that! The humiliation doesnt keep me from doing it again though.

I'm hoping this helps you, because I dont feel any differently than you described, even though I haven't been in the habit of lying about many factual circumstances for the last decade or so, I still have a knee jerk reaction to alter things and it makes me feel secure when I do it.

The shame isn't about the lie itself or that you said it, its that you feel like you're not allowed to be authentic, and then are shameful for not forcing yourself to be authentic anyway. The content of what you're not honest about doesn't matter, its the feeling like you're a shadow hovering around your real self and only you know that. That you are not welcome to be here and fully present.

I flipped out on a thread here when someone attacked my credibility because of that, thats the truth. I rebounded by changing my avatar to part of my face...then offered up my children's faces without asking them first LOL.....

I hope you stop being so hard on yourself about this, you didn't ask to develop de-realization coping skills to survive trauma, and where you're coming from with this habit is not intentional deception. That is not what motivates you. I work with people that lie at their job all day and think its funny, dont put yourself in that category Ms. Spock, you don't belong there.

 

[Deleted member 541]

@Ms Spock I'm on the flip side of all of this. Too honest. As a child I told everyone I knew about the abuse going on, hoping that someone would do something to stop it. Then my mother would come along and tell people I was crazy, troublemaker, blah blah blah.

I ended up with a daughter that became the biggest liar in the world. She lies about everything and admits doing so. Huge trigger for me, we don't have a relationship because of this and other issues also. I can't trust her!

I hope that one day, you can overcome this. It's difficult for others to have relationships with people when they find out that the other person hasn't been honest with them. Not judging, just trying to explain how I feel being on the flip side of this.