News Woody Allen Is Not A Monster. He Is A Person. Like My Father.

[Pencil]

Banishment of them from society is just too impractical and imprecise at the moment.

Yes, my question remains: What do we do with them? Besides, it raises the stakes in the sense that the more stringent the measures taken against them, the more the heavier the burden of proof on the victim - which will have terrible consequences or many levels, from the emotional, the social, the judicial right through to the medical. Result? Victims will keep quiet.

 

[ms spock]

I don't know how we get around that Pencil.

My psychiatrist doesn't recommend people go through the legal system until the person has pretty much finished therapy because of how rough the legal system in Australia can be on victims/survivors.

In South Africa they dropped the burden of proof on rape as well as the time spent in jail. So many more cases were successfully prosecuted but the time in jail time was reduced. I saw a women interviewed about this and she said it was the fact of being convicted that had more of an impact than the time spent in jail. I am not explaining this very well.

And she commented that dropping the burden of proof meant that more rape victims came forward because before they feared not being believed and the legal system made it difficult to get a conviction.

Of course this is different to child sexual assault and managing child rapists.

 

[Pencil]

My very sick sister (K) accused my eldest sister (M) of abusing her own son. She phoned M's ex husband with the same story. Fortunately, my ex brother in law was sensible enough to tell K that she was insane and never contact him again. If the divorce had not been amicable, and my brother in law not as involved with his son and ex wife as he was, and if he had an axe to grind, K's allegations could have been devastating. After my other sister's death (S) many years ago, K tried taking over S's two children, without success. K has involved Child Protection Services numerous times with allegations that my daughter might be at risk - meaning that I might be sexually abusing her. It's a matter of time before she makes a direct accusation.

We have to remember that there ARE false allegations, with very destructive consequences.

 

[ms spock]

Yes and they ruin the world for the rest of us survivors/victims. They might make 2% of the claims but 100% of people who disclose get the it might be a lie/made up comment, look and suspicion.

I don't know if you are aware of the case of the 11 year old boy killed by his father by a baseball bat recently? She had an intervention order out against him.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

Why can't we humanize pedophiles? But we can humanize admitted violent angry physically abusive wives?

Exactly.

It's amazing what the human psyche will do to maintain a safe sense of the world. Pedophiles are unsafe. They are un-human. They are out there, somewhere OUT THERE. Uncle Fred, babysitter Susie, neighbor Bob....I know them, and I know they are human. Pedophiles aren't human, so Fred, Susie, and Bob aren't pedophiles. They are in my world so they are "safe" (in the sense that my world must be safe so my mind must say these people are safe). After all, pedophiles are un-human, these people are human. I "know" Fred/Susie/Bob and I "know" they could never do something so horrible!.... And so the cycle goes, the mind being unable to reconcile people being capable of pure evil when they are seemingly good people on the surface.

Women are nurturers, carers, and so it is hard for society to de-humanize a woman, conversely it's easy to see the human side, wanting to rehabilitate them or even excuse their behavior by saying she was scared into her abusive reaction by a larger intimidating man. But would we ever excuse a man who snaps after being manipulated by a bitchy, intrusive, in-your-face woman? Hells no.

Humanize them all. Keep them as monsters and the monsters will always be somewhere out there.

Sorry, but it really hocks me off how women are given a free pass on abuse much of the time. Such crap.

 

[ms spock]

Especially female sexual predators, they seem to get off scott free.

 

[Valentino]

Result? Victims will keep quiet.

I think that silence and secrecy is one of the BIGGEST issues that's indirectly and directly enabling patterns of abuse to continue in our modern society.

There's a theory out there called Spiral of Silence with wikipedia description of: Spiral of silence theory describes the process by which one opinion becomes dominant as those who perceive their opinion to be in the minority do not speak up because society threatens individuals with fear of isolation.

Think about what criminals hate the most? A snitch. Why? Because as long as the crimes are in secret and there are no witnesses, they can continue their lifestyle. So criminals are VERY intelligent, they know their greatest weakness. So they actively judge, shame and attack any people who show potential behavior of 'snitching'.

So how to fight abuse? Everyone needs to become honest snitches. Or as one of the 10 commandments states "Though shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor".

'The truth will set you free' is a great pointer with so many levels of practical use.

Brutal honest raw truth, always wins against deception. Abuse needs deception and secrecy to continue. The same goes for self-abuse, it continues simply because of self-deception.

The more honest we are to ourselves and others, the less we consciously and unconsciously abuse others and ourselves. The more we tell the truth about ourselves and others, and point out bad behavior when we see it; we are changing our shared environment, allowing less secrecy, less self deception, therefore it makes it harder for abusers to continue their abuse. They will easier get caught or simply limit their own behavior.

This is a difficult route to take. Putting honesty before protecting feelings or chasing happiness. That can be quite foreign and dangerous in our current overly politically correct society.

But aren't we getting sick and tired of living in a fantasy world? It takes so much damn work to keep the fantasy going. It's never really satisfying, because deep down we know that it's not real and it's not sustainable. Yes, giving up control to reality as it is, is out right terrifying. But at least it's real. Real living satisfies the spirit, living in fantasy always leaves something lacking.

If we can have the courage to strive for honesty above all else, we can very quickly start noticing just how many layers of lies and deception that we live with and have gotten used to. Our vision naturally becomes clearer, we more quickly recognize when we are abusive to ourselves and others, and at the same time recognize it in others. Making us better able to respond against potential abusers and at the same time more genuinely able to protect others when practical.

..... Yes, it sounds too simple, but it's not so simple to do.

To be more effective, all of this needs to be done in the spirit of love and respect for our shared humanity. Honoring the human individual right and need for freedom of expression and choice. At the same time calling out abusive behavior when people try to control or steal this from others.

 

[ms spock]

Brutal honest raw truth, always wins against deception. Abuse needs deception and secrecy to continue. The same goes for self-abuse, it continues simply because of self-deception.

I did this. I was brutally honest. I was ostracised from my family. No one else stood up because they saw what happened to me.

 

[Valentino]

Often times standing up for the truth ends up in additional abuse.

Unfortunately, this is the reality of the world we live in currently.

What's the solution? Maybe we could take out the worst offenders. But what about all the people who actively attack and blame the victim? Aren't they also actively supporting the culture of silence? Aren't they partially responsible too?

If we're looking to simply punish people, there's too many people to list. Let's just spread more pain around in the name of protection or revenge?

Feels like using the ideal of protection and fighting abuse to justify more abusive behavior.

This is big part of just how difficult it is for a person to choose love of the truth instead of hatred of reality. From this love, can come respect of our shared humanity. And that disarms us from trying to shove our truth down other's throats. At the same time, it empowers us to not allow mob mentality to shove their truths and lies down our throats.

Choosing the path of hatred starts a slippery slope to becoming secret abusers within, and it's only a matter of time before we start abusing others.

There was a time in the past when honor and character were some of the highest values to protect. An apology was more genuine, there was real concern that the other person was harmed or might respond in violent kind. A thank you was more than just words. Respect meant more, and disrespect was felt as true physical harm. Actions and behavior backed up words.

Now, the meaning behind all these gestures has somehow been lost.

People openly tweak and modify language for selfish benefit. Personal responsibility is constantly pushed away towards others, by constant focus on blaming. (ie. Government and police needs to do more, parents aren't good enough, there needs to be more rules, stronger punishment, etc.; fear fear, and more fear. )

And all of this running around might simply be due to everyone is trying to keep the web of feel good lies and culture of silence going??

Is this what the three wise monkeys are pointing towards with their "See No Evil, Hear No Evil, and Speak No Evil"??

Ignorance and silence, somehow magically makes abuse and evil disappear from within humanity?

 

[Hashi]

What do we do with them?

We put legal restrictions on them and enforce that. Things like being on a register that people in certain roles (eg police, youth group leaders, certain employers) can access. Not being allowed within a certain distance of schools, playgrounds etc. Not being allowed to work in certain jobs.

At the moment, I don't know of any legal safeguards that apply in a family context. Not in my country at any rate. I think they need to. Instead of leaving it to families to assess, monitor and implement what needs to be done - or to just do nothing - I think we need legal safeguards around that. Because people in families can be in denial, can be too trusting, can have poor judgement, can be abusive, can be co-dependent, can lack information and can themselves be too damaged, intimidated or overwhelmed to even think of appropriate action, let alone take it.

If there are legal restrictions on what can happen in a family setting then that might not always be followed, but at least it's there - the family members are not being asked to make difficult decisions and they're also not being allowed to make excuses for whatever reason. If it's not followed then at least somewhere down the line there's some accountability.

If there are concerns about this because the legal system isn't 100% perfect, then work on the legal system. Don't expect families where abuse has already occurred, with who knows what going on in terms of individual family members' own history, agendas, mental health issues, denial, incapacity, defensiveness and prejudice, to be the place where the solution lies.

Like Abstract, I think I've been misunderstood in this thread, in my own way. I don't think the author of that article was purely writing about his own experience, for catharsis or whatever. He made claims that "we know" about the effectiveness of jail sentences, he misrepresented Loskarn's suicide note, and he responded to Dylan Farrow's invitation to think about your favourite Woody Allen movie within a context that was not Dylan Farrow's but other people's (which I think was disingenuous and invalidating). If he had stuck to himself and his Dad, then fair enough. But if he's going to bring views and other people into it, then I think he needs to substantiate and qualify what he says. Or not say it.

A personal history can exempt you from writing something that calls for substantiation. But if you write something that would in every other circumstance call for substantiation don't expect your personal history to exempt you from that.

At any rate, should we really "humanise" paedophiles to the point where a single admisstion over the phone to their target - for all we know, an admission that was later buried - is all that's wanted? As I said before, for him that might have been enough. For me, it's far from it. His individual feelings about his father's humanity have failed to address the general humanitarian issue.

 

[Pencil]

Choosing the path of hatred starts a slippery slope to becoming secret abusers within,

This is why I love the movie 'Running Man' (novel by Stephen King) - it is profound social commentary on mob justice.

 

[Pencil]

We put legal restrictions on them and enforce that. Things like being on a register that people in certain roles (eg police, youth group leaders, certain employers) can access. Not being allowed within a certain distance of schools, playgrounds etc. Not being allowed to work in certain jobs.

I was under the impression that that was already done in the US.

Sticking my head in a hornet's nest here:

Let's not take the example of pedophiles as it is a very sensitive issue for many members. Let's take the example of Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. We immediately see their 'problem' as either moral or pathological. I've often wondered about it. In the same way that homosexuality used to be seen as an aberration (religious, psychological) whereas studies are now showing physiological differences, I wonder what the real cause of their behaviour is. The same goes for pedophiles.

Please don't assume that I'm saying child abuse is not an evil aberration - or that I'm trying to excuse the behaviour in any way. I remember seeing Dahmer on tv during his trial, and him asking for the death sentence as he acknowledged that he could not control his behaviour. The consensus (on this thread at least) is that pedophiles can't be cured. That begs the question: Why not?

I can't help hoping that once (in the distant future) the root cause of the problem (which I suspect is physiological / neurological / a twist in their wiring) is pinpointed the attitude will shift (from 'they are sick' to 'they are defective') and that early detection and therefore prevention will be possible.In other words, we won't have to rely on the existence of victims. But that opens a whole new can of worms with regards to genetic engineering, amongst other things.