News Woody Allen Is Not A Monster. He Is A Person. Like My Father.

[ms spock]

I'm not saying anyone on this thread is advocating something similar, but I think it's something to be careful of. Acceptance without management can produce more openness and integration without any strong safeguards. Someone admitting their behaviour without any future safeguards around their behaviour isn't something I'm impressed by.

Acceptance without management would be useless and dangerous. It is an important point you have picked up Hashi.

 

[ms spock]

I think this is an important point, and an aspect that needs to be greatly increased - giving children the message that they can safely talk to someone (and making that actually safe for them).

It would be good if it actually worked.

 

[ms spock]

@Valentino you always have so many insightful things to say. I will have to reread you tomorrow when I am not so tired.

 

[rainy_daze]

Valentino said: ↑ But the wounded victims indirectly get overlooked and their tragic stories of suffering get subtly dismissed. It happened earlier in this thread. I agree totally.

I re-read your post @Valentino and the whole thread but couldn't see this happening [maybe I'm too tired, or not intelligent enough]. I hope that if someone wants to speak about the bigger issues, that's because they care, and not due to distracting themselves. There is also a diary section, where anyone can go and share their story. I think it's fine to share in whatever way is going to make someone feel most comfortable, and I don't see that as a bad thing on a thread that is about an article and the topics it raised, as opposed to a thread which focuses on sharing trauma stories. I share in a way I feel comfortable with, given we're in the "News, politics, debates" section. I appreciate others sharing whatever they wish [and I think it's incredibly brave to do so, because these topics are not easy at all].

I think it's important to acknowledge that people have limits too. I'm finding your posts difficult Valentino, I think maybe we view this thread differently, and possibly have different world views. Thanks for challenging my brain. It's tired now though.

who are we to judge since the only info we have is sensationalistic media

@Tswevnz , that's why I haven't said anything about any of the celebrities. The article makes references to lots of other links, and I started reading and realised that the woman he is married to now wasn't his adopted daughter - yet I have heard other people (in my life) talk about how sick and weird it is he married his adopted daughter. It's very easy for facts to get lost in the media and people talking or misunderstanding. There is such a huge background to read around this family that I realised I was investing time and effort that wasn't necessary or helping me heal.

There's a woman called Dylan that I don't know, and it's her life, she can make her own decisions, with or without me reading about them.

I was moved by the article, even if angry and confused at the end. The writer struck a chord with me, as have others on this thread. I personally don't think I'd ever be strong enough to go to the police, but I reckon I could be strong enough to write an anonymous article [a bit like writing on here].

One calls us liars when we come forward, another calls us crazy. There is a notion that we should be skeptical when an adult comes forward and names their abuser, that we should carefully question their motivations lest we be duped by someone who is manufacturing, or at least strategically re-crafting, a story of abuse to shirk responsibility for their own transgressions. There is also the popular notion that "false memories" of child abuse are common.

^ from the article. If someone abused you, you deserve to have a voice and be heard, in whatever way you can [and not be feared into silence].

 

[ms spock]

Why hasn't the accuser gone via police instead of Ny times?

Your point is fair enough why not go to the police?

The very effects of child rape are the very factors that mean that child sexual assault survivors are seen and viewed as not being credible witnesses.

I would prefer an inquisitorial legal system to our adversarial legal system

I haven't gone to the police because I know how people are treated by the legal system in Australia. I know how easy it is for someone with white skin privilege, money and social status, who is charismatic like my father, to get off. know the hell the survivor gets put through. Simply I would not survive the process. I am barely making it through the day as it is. My psychiatrist said to me that going to the police is the end of the therapy process and she will talk people out going to the police because she knows what happens to survivors/victims.

But you are right @Tswevnz under the Western adversarial legal system Allen is entitled to the presumption of innocence. I don't know what we do with that. I don't know how we get justice. I don't know how we do procedural fairness et al, which is part of our legal system.

Child rapists consistently deny their behaviours - and in that context I don't know how we protect the next generation or even the other children in the same age group.

 

[ms spock]

The statistics that I put forward in this thread were incorrect. It is not 2% false reporting of child sexual assault it is 8% false allegations. Of those false allegations 55% were made by men and 45% were made by women.

That does mean though, that 92% of the allegations were found to be true.

 

[Echo]

What is a survivor to do when the investigating police choose not to proceed with prosecution? Just because they do not, does not mean the abuse did not happen. I applaud any survivor for finding his/her voice. There is personal power to be gained from speaking out. Given the personal emotional costs, I doubt there are many false allegations; the abuse levelled at the survivor speaking out, which is all too evident for all of us to see, would stop all but the most foolhardy from doing so. We cannot know what happened, and we have to operate under the rule of law, which unfortunately does not often serve the victim well. It does not mean we cannot believe someone like Dylan Farrow. I believe her. And I would have had no hesitation in believing the author of this article, even had his father not confessed. The accounts are just too familiar to fellow victims of abuse. Yes, we need to adhere to the presumption of innocence unless proven otherwise, but there are proofs other than those to be obtained in a court of law.

I am about to send a letter to my abusive parents setting out things clearly in my case. So many years later, there is no proof that would stand up in a court of law. What is important for me is to refuse finally to live their lies, and to let them know emphatically that I remember, what it has done to me, and that I refuse to be treated like that anymore. I don't know how they will react - it is likely to be vile either way - but I know they will have to reckon with their own consciences in the end and I'm not going to allow them the continued comfort of denial. I may not have the public profile of Dylan Farrow or Woody Allen, but maybe she wants to achieve something similar, too. It may not be about revenge or attention-seeking at all - I am surprised to see those old myths resurrected here.

I have also wondered whether this has been done in Dylan Farrow's case, in order to try and precipitate a libel action. It is noticeable that Woody Allen has not gone for that option. There may be all sorts of reasons for that, but they are not all benign.

If some survivors don't speak up and tell their stories in whatever way and by whichever channel is available to them within the law, then the general public will never be educated and understand what is at stake, such as for instance, how long it goes on affecting us. Maybe one day, what constitutes proof will change; maybe the effects on our bodies and minds will be considered evidence. Who knows? Those of us who can manage it, should not have to fear speaking our truth. I hope that in generations to come, things will be easier. But they won't unless an increasing number of brave people do speak out.

 

[ms spock]

Then there is the Luke Batty case where the mother did every thing right, had access with the father around lots of other parents around, and the father got his child on to the other side of the sporting oval and killed him with a base ball bat. So how we manage that I don't know either.

That is the type of random violence is the type of violence that my father would engage in - random and unexpected.

 

[ms spock]

I have been all over the place in this thread. I wish I could be more together about it. I was going to apologise for taking the thread off tangent in some ways but then I thought perhaps the author wrote the article trying to get us to have these types of discussions.

 

[Valentino]

I re-read your post @Valentino and the whole thread but couldn't see this happening [maybe I'm too tired, or not intelligent enough]. I hope that if someone wants to speak about the bigger issues, that's because they care, and not due to distracting themselves. ...
I appreciate others sharing whatever they wish [and I think it's incredibly brave to do so, because these topics are not easy at all].

I think it's important to acknowledge that people have limits too. I'm finding your posts difficult Valentino, I think maybe we view this thread differently, and possibly have different world views. Thanks for challenging my brain. It's tired now though.

Being heard is something deeper than just giving a person a voice or offering validation back. It's a more active type of listening, where someone can really 'get it', understand where another person is coming from, and at an emotional level feel and share in the pain underlying the story of suffering.

What I feel that's going on in this thread is a combination of circular conversation and dancing around the subject. People are given a voice on the surface, but few people are really being heard. Signs of this are feelings of frustration, getting more invested in positions, repeating same message in new ways, or giving up on understanding and connecting.

I'm not interested in taking sides or judging particular people. I'm just pointing out behavior patterns.

These are some of the same patterns that general society uses reinforce a culture of silence, which indirectly enables abusers, and at the same time adds secondary wounding to abuse survivors.

This may feel like it's blaming the victim, but it's actually offering the victim more freedom and empowerment. It just feels scary on the surface.

I still totally respect's people's right to lead their own lives and be responsible for their choices. And if they choose to selectively hear others and themselves, that's their right and I totally honor that. But I'm just trying to push this unconscious type of habitual decision towards a more educated conscious choice.

Maybe I'm being unrealistic, expecting too much from others. Pushing their limits. But isn't the bigger goal for healing, recovery and understanding? Not just easing discomfort or protecting safety?

Maybe it's just me, I'm more sensitive to recognize all the various tactics and patterns of deception, distraction and deflection underlying common conversation, I learned this skill probably from having to grow up with a narcissist dad and borderline mom. I never felt heard. I constantly dealt with intentional distortions to my perception of reality. So I had to intuitively learn how to recognize many common tactics of covert manipulation and gas lighting. The only way to stay somewhat sane was to place my anchor on truth, reality and objectivity.

So, yes I am openly biased towards truth instead of protecting feelings. I apologize to others if this steps on your toes, but it's reality that's doing it, you don't always have to kill the messenger.

....
I could be misreading things, but I'm trying to address what I feel that's underlying the recent tone, responses, and non-responses in this thread. I will likely fail, and probably stepped on some land mines, but I try to learn from my mistakes. And I hope that some people can feel the intention behind my words.

 

[rainy_daze]

@Valentino I hear you. Thank you for the post above; I understood it. I just can't see where people aren't being heard on the thread? I think I have understood the majority of the posts. I think I have heard people, even if I struggle to respond to it all. Maybe my brain will click at some point on this one. I can't see what I'm missing. I take on board and understand your points about society. However, I can't see this thread as reinforcing a culture of silence. I guess I'm not understanding that.

Being heard is something deeper than just giving a person a voice or offering validation back. It's a more active type of listening, where someone can really 'get it', understand where another person is coming from, and at an emotional level feel and share in the pain underlying the story of suffering.

@bell put up a video on this thread https://www.myptsd.com/threads/empathy-compassion-how-much-do-you-have-why.38122/page-3 which is about empathy. Your post reminded me of it.

I actually do understand how to hear someone. I was also told once [by a friend who is also a Psychologist, years ago] that I have a gift, of natural empathy, but that I get too overwhelmed by it. She said I needed to learn how to control it better and harness it so that it didn't break me hearing other people and feeling their pain. I often attract people in my life that share their pain with me. That goes for strangers and people who later become my friends. People seem to trust me instantly and share, and I listen. It is very difficult sometimes. That's not really on topic, but just so you know.

So, if I've not been hearing people on this thread, I apologise. I would feel bad if I was doing this. I would never try to undermine or not hear someone. I very much want to help people heal. Just as I want others to help me if I feel that will benefit me. I can't always respond to some stories, but that doesn't mean I'm not listening. As a PTSD sufferer, as someone who has been silenced, as someone who has not been heard, and as a person, I know what it is like to feel unheard, in varying ways. I'm sad that you never felt heard by your parents, Valentino. I hope you're being heard now.

I also appreciate your honesty, Valentino.

I am about to send a letter to my abusive parents setting out things clearly in my case. So many years later, there is no proof that would stand up in a court of law. What is important for me is to refuse finally to live their lies, and to let them know emphatically that I remember, what it has done to me, and that I refuse to be treated like that anymore. I don't know how they will react

I was met with a bucket load of verbal abuse, abusive texts and [extremely bizarre] phone calls. It was difficult, but I got through it and stopped responding. In the end all of that stopped. If it flared up again, I could handle it.

Good luck with the letter @Echo (hope you know what I'm trying to say, luck sounds like the wrong word). I hope it aids in your healing. I found in the end I was glad I had managed it and I felt empowered. It's not the end of the story, but it was the end of evil biological father guy having any control or power. That's how it felt to me. I wish you all the best with it and hope you have supports in place - if not in real life, then there are many here who will understand and listen, I'm sure, myself included.

I could probably write more, but it's too difficult a topic for me today. I'm not shying away from it or anything, I will come back and read. Thanks for posting the article @Lost Pup and to people for contributing and liking my posts. That makes it easier to share.

 

[Echo]

Thank you, @rainy_daze - yes, very difficult terrain, and having just done the deed, I can't talk about it (I may post a thread in days to come to share what happens and ask for ideas and support, and maybe someone will find it helps them too). I also can't respond here to other issues beyond what I've said already. I just haven't got it in me today. But I agree with what you have said.

@Valentino - I also have to confess I haven't always understood what you are trying to say, although some of your posts I have found to be crystal clear. That may reflect what was going on for me on each particular occasion. I have though been a bit concerned that @Lost Pup's request to start a new thread to deal with what you were trying to bring into discussion went unheard. The topic is very much worthy of discussion but there is too much now goiing on in this thread for it to be operating clearly. I suppose I feel @Lost Pup's intention and the thrust of the article has been rather obfuscated, though there have been some very valuable things said by all respondents, to my mind. As it is, it just runs the risk, unnecessarily, of people talking at cross-purposes, which may lead to you or others feeling unheard. I think we're all actually trying really hard to grapple with some very tough stuff, as well as manage our own lives and illnesses. It would be a shame to take anything personally or imput negative intentions in people. I don't know who your comments are aimed at, but since they are vaguely stated, several of us are no doubt left feeling they are rather unjustifiably meant for us. None of us has the right to believe we have a better take on such hefty issues than anyone else. Perhaps you didn't intend for that to be the meaning conveyed. Anyway, it would be great to see you post this as another thread, and I'm sure you'd get a good discussion going.