Relationship Manipulation Or Ptsd? I Don't Walk Away, But I Might Have To...

[NaeNae75]

I don't actually think it's manipulation or PTSD. Being a trauma survivor who has dealt with sociopa...

Wow.....I really think I needed to hear that. I've re-read your post several times. I agree very much to what you have said. I think your assessment is very much en pointe. In reality, it makes a lot of sense, and that it would be closer to him being himself, and not "turned" into some monster.

Yes, I do feel very taken for granted. I feel everything I was already doing was ignored, and now the things I've been willing to do are also overlooked. I think I get upset that when he left he told me "they" needed distance from me because I'm "toxic", but he has no problem asking me to watch him, or letting him be over here, because the reality is, I'm safe for his son and I love him.

Now, it just seemed like he was playing a game with me...and I hate that. My own PTSD does not present the same as his, so sometimes it makes it harder for me to understand what is going on clearly. I defaulted to.....everyone tries to manipulate me and hurt me. But you're right, that likely isn't the fact. Reality is more likely that we are both just "reacting" and trying too hard to "read each other's minds".

I also appreciate your suggested "plan of attack". I think it is fruitful advise in any situation. I need to do my best to calm down, and maybe find a way to work through my hurt feelings so I can handle things better and with more clarity. Maybe then I can be more effective at maintaining healthy boundaries. I thought by asking him if he realized he was doing this, I was trying to tell him my expectations in a healthier way. But I can also see where this could have felt like an accusation if he isn't seeing too clearly right now. I just wanted him to know how his actions were making me feel and suggest an alternative way so that I didn't feel used.

I guess only time and work will tell....one way or another.

 

[NaeNae75]

It's not good that he's avoiding treatment. That is probably playing a huge role in why things are g...

Yes....this!

No, I agree with you that what I meant was more.....if I took space, I don't think he would like it very much. I've never done this, even when I felt the need to. My isolating as a sufferer are much less "noticeable" than his are...or less complicated...and even that has a tendency to bother him. Usually I will go be alone in my room or spend a lot of time in the bathtub, then go straight to my room. Usually it's for one day/night....sometimes a couple of hours....once in a great while two days. He can't stand it. He literally won't leave me alone, then I get irritated. So I can't imagine how he would react if I took the kind of "space" he does.

When he does this, it sets off some sort of panic response for me. I am usually pretty good at "squashing" it, but it's still in there somewhere, screaming quietly in my head. Normally, I can maintain everything, but this go around seems different than our usual dance. I can't help but think it's because of his son.

Not that it's his fault, but we are both acting differently because of his involvement. For whatever reason, he doesn't give my kids the same level of consideration, but he says it's because of how much older they are, so he thinks they aren't affected by it....but he's wrong. We ALL are affected by it. But, my kids don't get uprooted from their beds when it happens either. His son had to go with him, so the dynamic is very much different. It is harder to protect him from it, because he's not here maintaining as much of a normal life as possible.

Even now, realizing that once his need for space goes away, or he gets back into therapy and is ready to come home, once again his son gets moved. I think that alone is going to prolong things this time. I think that he's going to push me away even harder so he isn't "uprooting" him again. I'm really afraid of what this means. But if he decides not to be in a relationship anymore....I don't think I can keep being his son's "mother" if he decides to start a new relationship. I don't think that's fair to any of us.

I love them, both of them. I just wish that mattered more. Maybe I just wish I mattered more too....it feels like my needs and feelings just don't matter. I guess I set the bar pretty low by not taking care of them myself either.

 

[NaeNae75]

Sorry I don't have better advice. I have an idea of how things would be (more) ideally but no ide...

Don't be sorry. I feel your advice has been very sound. I am okay with "postponing" my feelings being taken care of for a bit. Especially since any action right now either way would likely push him away, as you suggest....then they would be hurt even worse. I'm going to wait a couple of days, then ask him to go to our couples therapy on Wednesday. I know he won't be receptive of the idea today, so it's okay to wait. I will ask our T to ask him if he has some regular sessions scheduled with his VA therapist.

The whole situation sucks. I actually can't stand that I have no idea how to make things better, especially for the son. Or at least, I don't know how to do that without enabling the father....I guess I need to weigh out which is more important in the long run. I keep wavering back and forth on how is best to handle this.

Part of me says, regardless of what is going on...I should ask for a certain amount of "days" of his son being here. I know he would agree to it if I tell him it isn't using me, but maintaining stability for the son. Then once he calms down....then we can do the major boundary setting etc. The only reason I haven't is because I don't want to reinforce that he can behave as poorly as he wants without any consequence.

When I would have PTSD flareups when my kids were younger, I didn't have anyone to help me. I did it all myself. But, I think my kids suffered because of it. If I can mitigate some of his (the son's) pain, maybe it shouldn't matter how it affects the dad....or even me in the long run. I don't want to be a selfish a hole here. The entire situation blows, and is making me crazy. I'm beginning to feel like I need a full time T or life coach to tell me what the right thing to do is.

Maybe the best thing I can do is be me. I'm a strong, independent woman with a big heart. Maybe I should trust in the strengths I've been bestowed. Maybe that is the simple answer. Maybe worrying if my taking care of the son might enable the father is short sighted. Maybe I should remove all thoughts of the dad right now in my decision. If I wasn't "romantically involved" would I still do what I could to keep the son from as much pain as I could. The answer is yes. The fact that I've had the amount of foster kids I have raised in the past is testament to that. Maybe I need to think outside of the situation for now, until I'm strong enough to do that.

Thank you for being a voice of reason in the meantime. The people on this site have been a saving grace for me to work through these issues out loud. My "village" so to speak.

 

[PetuniaPusher]

I have spoken with two women who are the wives of men who have combat PTSD. When I have complained to them about a similar experience like yours, they both pretty much said that this is normal behavior. Supporters have to have thick skin and not take things so personally. It's a lonely world and that trying to explain our SO's behavior to people who don't understand PTSD, is really what gets us to overthink things, instead of coming from a loving place. Besides my own mother and my SO's mother, anyone outside of our world, who isn't a veteran, would automatically tell me that I'm being manipulated. However, the vets and their wives tell me that this is just how it goes--no rhyme or reason. Get used to it. It's usually a pattern and what needs to happen is that I need to exercise more patience and NOT take things so personal.

As a supporter, my experience has been that when my boyfriend withdraws, it is usually from the stress I have unknowingly put on him. He has a very hard time taking any criticism.

When I became serious about my boyfriend, I thought we could have a healthy, happy, normal relationship. That I could talk to him like an adult and display that I have boundaries--healthy boundaries! However, I have learned that because I do not have a normal relationship, because of the PTSD, I have to make a lot more concessions than normal. I feel like the relationship is always about him and his feelings. And, quite frankly, it is. It sucks sometimes--a lot of the time--but the comfort that I get comes out like it did last week, in our first therapy session together, he cried like a baby when he told the counselor how important I was to him, and that I have been by his side though everything. He pointed out that he's never had that kind of love and support before from anyone. That to me is not manipulation and believe me, I have been ready to jump ship many times.

In the last six months, of our year and a half relationship, I have also learned to be more open with how my boyfriend's actions, or inactions, have made me feel--usually hurt. After I tell him what hurts my feelings, I make a suggestion on how to avoid doing that to me next time. I try to be more of a reassuring girlfriend than a nagging one. I don't know if it was just me or if women generally do this, but when I don't feel heard, I tend to just keep at my boyfriend until I get the response I want, which never happens, and then I wonder why we fight all the time. This is what made me change the style in how I talk to him.

I learned if you want the same result, then do the same. If you want a different result, you have to DO different. Now I explain to him how something he did hurt my feelings--or made me feel rejected--and then I quickly moving on to a gentle suggestion on how he can avoid hurting my feeling next time by just doing xyz. Now trust me, this is easier said than done, because when we are hurt, we get angry and putting aside our anger is sometimes REALLY DIFFICULT to do.

Recently, boyfriend said in therapy that he carries a lot of shame and guilt. I suspected this, but I never heard him actually say it. Having that in mind now, I realize that I need to be extra careful on arguing with him and that arguing needs to be avoided at all costs. Why? Because dealing with someone that just feels guilty about something just means they can recognize that their behavior was wrong. When you deal with someone who has shame, they think they are bad. Criticizing someone who has shame, just reinforces their feelings that they are bad. People who don't feel safe from criticism or yelling when they carry shame, do not come around. They will avoid confrontation or anything that may lead getting into an argument with their SO like the plague. So if your boyfriend is avoiding you, it might be because he feels you are attacking him all the time. My boyfriend has said this to me, and we are going to try to work it out in therapy because sometimes I don't know how much nicer I can be to him....but to the rest of the world, it looks like manipulation.

I'm going to end this with that saying, I think it goes something like....you get more bees with honey than you do vinegar. Anyway, that's the approach I've had to take with my boyfriend. My own insecurities and needs often have to be put to the side, for his. Like you, I see a beautiful man who has many issues. Lots of my friends tell me I should just ditch him and go get someone else, but the reason why I stay is that I feel like he would be left flapping in the wind without my love and support. This has really been the most challenging thing I have ever done, and it has also been the most selfless. I can say I feel a LOT better when I can see that his actions have really nothing to do with me--he is just reacting to something that strikes a nerve in him. He's a lot happier and comes around a lot more when I'm supportive and loving.

 

[NaeNae75]

I have spoken with two women who are the wives of men who have combat PTSD. When I have complain...

I appreciate your comment. But I hope you understand some of the differences as well. I have learned a long time ago how to generally deal with his PTSD. I grew up in a PTSD filled household, so I was not unaware of how this is typical. I've lived with my own PTSD diagnosis for over 18 years as well.

I understand that very little of his isolation has a whole lot to do with me, other than being the "scapegoat" of it. I modified the way I speak to him a long time ago....years ago in fact. But, I'm not going to pretend as if my feelings and the feelings of our children don't matter just to maintain peace so he doesn't have to carry any responsibility either. That is a very slippery slope.

I'm not sure if you are saying that these women told you to "get used to it" or if you are saying that to me and suggesting I need thicker skin, because I promise you, mine is as thick as an elephants when it comes to my own feelings. I really don't give a rip about my own feelings most of the time, to the point it's almost unhealthy. So in order to avoid being in some sick co-dependent relationship, I'm going to hold him responsible for his own indiscretions....whether it makes him feel guilty or not.

I'm not willing to sugar coat it for him. I can treat him with respect and dignity, and I do...but PTSD or not, his behavior is NOT OKAY and I'm not going to just let him think it is. We have kids that are being damaged by this. So no, I have zero intentions of fighting with him, or butting heads, but when he refuses to even listen to my simple explanation of WHY I was hurt, than enough is enough.

I know many people with PTSD that accept their responsibilities and generally handle them, whether it's difficult or not. I'm not sure if I misread your comment or not, but it came off to me that you think I should just accept poor behavior and be "sweeter" to him and put my own needs aside for his "delicate" ones..... I hope you realize that isn't healthy. I hope you realize you shouldn't be putting your needs and insecurities aside....that isn't how it works...even with PTSD. The thing is, your needs and insecurities should be dealt with in a healthy manor by you doing work on yourself....and I do that. I take care of my needs whether he can participate or not.

And even though I am willing to take care of my own needs, I know I have to take care of the kids needs as well....and he needs to as well. Whether he likes it or not, he CHOSE to get full custody of his son. That comes with RESPONSIBILITY PTSD be damned. So yes, I have to put my hurt aside to make sure the son stays as out of the line of fire as possible...but that doesn't mean that he can neglect his responsibilities to me, my kids, or his son because he feels "guilty" or whatever. This goes beyond whether he's "happier when he comes around". It has to do with him being responsible for his own actions....because yes, despite PTSD, a person can take ownership of their own responsibility. I have, my father did, and numerous people on this site have worked beyond their own PTSD "issues" to survive and flourish.

Again, I'm sorry if my reply seems harsh, but I may have misread what you wrote. But what I interpreted is that I should just be nicer and understand he feels bad and if I do the world will be all rainbows and sunshine.....and that I should give up even more than I already have for the last 6.5 years. I can't and I won't. I'll compromise, but the problem is I already overdid...so I can't continue to overdo to fix it. If that's what you think you need to do to be a good "supporter", I think you should read a little more from some of the successful long term supporters on this site. NONE of them are willing to forego their own needs....that's how they have survived.

 

[Justmehere]

Every relationship is going to look differen and ins its balance differently.

If a supporters needs never have any space to exist in the relationship, it's not really a relationship between two people. It's just all the sufferer, and as a sufferer, that doesn't feel good -- even when I absolutely know it's done out of kindness and compassion for me.

Sometimes either parties needs in the relationship have to come first, but that doesn't mean either needs to just ignore their own needs.

Boundaries and honey but gentle and nonjudgmental expression of needs of supporters in my life has been a huge help to my own recovery from PTSD.

I struggle with deep guilt and shame myself, and I constantly feel broken - but when someone suggests something to do differently in a positive way that could help them in life - it helps tremendously.

Saying something like "I feel used when you..."!That would sting so much. Sometimes that can be an absolutely appropriate thing to say - but not usually a good place to start.

Saying instead, "I feel valued and respected when you... And I need to feel valued and respected in order to make this work." - I would feel super encouraged by this.

It's not an ignoring of needs at all, it's a re-framing of them as positive and nessecary things.

All tough things to do in a relationship without PTSD in the mix. My heart goes out to all trying to figure out how to do it with PTSD in the mix!

 

[Justmehere]

On his part, I can see how it stung and feel so deeply invalidating when he says the snarling stuff about not wanting you to feel used and being a toxic person - when you had such a legit and important need.

He too could have said, "I'm doing this because I value you" and left the passive aggressive snark out of it. Argh. :(

 

[PetuniaPusher]

@NaeNae75 I think you read a little bit too much into what I wrote, because I used my own example of how I deal with things and what is working for me and my Vet. I never said any of this is easy or "rainbows and sunshine." Actually, quite the opposite. What I hoped I said was that signing up to love someone who has PTSD is not easy and that it's important to convey hurt feelings rather than angry ones. Angry feelings usually fall on deaf ears, whether someone has PTSD or not.

As far as my own needs? Half the things he does, I don't take it personally. It's not a reflection of me or the relationship. It's definitely a reflection of what is going on in his head...stress...anxiety, etc.

As far as the women I talk to and how they told me to get used to it...again, they told me to get used to it, because they have gone through it themselves. Nobody is telling you what to do--certainly not me. Sorry if you took it that way, but I was just sharing my story and my own experience.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

he waivers back and forth about whether we are broken up or not....he doesn't even know. They were living here, but he went back to his other house 3 weeks ago.

Ok, then that's different. My point was there are a lot of supporters on here that their sufferer need space every time each year, and that's what it sounded like. If that's the case and you guys arent broken up then id thinking responsiblity for the kids, being split, wouldnt change. But if he is waviering between broken up & not and if he has moved before, his son is ultimently his reaponsiblity.

Im just VERY careful of the word manipulation as one can manipulate and have no idea they are doing so, or not doing so at all as in manipulation is intent. If its not on purpose then theres no intent. Thats all.

 

[NaeNae75]

Every relationship is going to look differen and ins its balance differently.

If a supporters need...

Thank you, this is a very helpful perspective. When I asked him, it was not confrontational. In fact, I told him that I don't feel like watching LK is using me, because I love having him around. I told him in the last two weeks, he's only called when he wants something and wondered if he even realized he was doing that. I see now where that could have set him on the defensive.

I definitely could do without the snark....and he is the king of passive aggressive. I agree that there is so much I could better too, there is always room for improvement. I know that I still have plenty of my own issues. I know what I need to do....and the kids are genuinely my primary focus, now and will continue to be.

 

[NaeNae75]

So, I have an update. Despite the fact that he blew up at me that night, he did at least hear me. Yesterday I sent him a small video of "our" granddaughter in her bouncer having a blast. Nothing more, nothing less. It isn't unusual for me to send something "light" and unrelated if we've had a disagreement. He made a sweet comment about her, and that was that.

Well, last night, he started texting me....contacted me first. I answered him again, light, no real substance, and I didn't call him. I sent him a text this morning wishing him a good day at work. He just sent me a text asking me how late I would be up...I asked why. He said because he wanted to call and "touch base" with me.

He just called me and we chatted....again nothing ground breaking, but it's nice to have him contacting me. It really makes me feel like even though he yelled at me, he actually did listen to me. It makes me feel a little bit better about the state of things. This is how things start when he starts "coming down"...or whatever. It made me feel a bit more content.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

This is how things start when he starts "coming down"...or whatever.

Just throwing something out there, I could be way wrong but a trigger makes me tailspin, I used to all over the site, full of rage and stuff, after the tailspin is like a lull where I start to gain self awareness, understanding, and try to patch the things up with the people I tailspinned all over.

I used to not have much control over it. None of it was on purpose. None of it was purposeful manipulation. All of it done due to my trauma and no one (in my real world) could understand it.

Im not trying to excuse behavior, at all. I remained responsible for the behavior, as does he, Im just trying to draw a line between purposeful manipulation and manipulation done on accident due to symptoms not yet able to control is all. I dont think he's trying to manipulate you.