Recovery4Me
VIP Member
@Lola Nocheprieta This is one of those times that I wish, we had a button for an exponent like! Thank you so much for your wisdom. As well, I have much gratitude towards all that shared their inner most hearts.
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Beaglefan61
Bronze Member
Forgiving done falsely can lead to great problems. I knew one person in denial who had 'prayed to forgive their abuser and it was done' and yet she was always enjoying hurting others.
Read something about a grudge being like drinking poison and hoping the other person would die. There seems a wisdom to this, yet at the same time i have seen grudge done as vengeance where it was ensured the other person would suffer.
I struggle with trying to forgive someone who left me in position to where on something that hurt i will not be believed by most people. I told someone earlier that putting someone in position to where they are forced to be left alone in their pain is a crime, so why would that not apply to me also? It makes actual forgiveness tougher because the pain is still there. It is ensured that the pain has little way of being overcome. For me i am not sure if this is done in apathy from the other, a grudge or punishment, or them shutting down to where they don't function. I can try to not hold a grudge in ways that grudge is actively retribution, yet at the same time forgiving is compromised as the longer that i am not believed, the more the damage to my life and the greater the chance there will end up being damage that will never be overcome.
We can try to forgive with understanding or compassion while we are still hurting, yet isn't part of this based on how great the damage and how negligent / uncaring / unyielding / the other person was or how they tried to put things right in ways that offset any prices we pay and do so in a timely manner to where it isn't like a snowball that grows? Timing seems so crucial in that. If we lost years then forgiving is made harder. That is like someone murdering part of our life and we having to resurrect ourselves. When the onus is on us for what someone else did well of course forgiving is harder.
Problem with holding a grudge is just making sure we don't enact it in active terms that are about vengeance rather than justice. As the line from the movie Gandhi, 'an eye for an eye making the world go blind'.
With some people they care to put things right and do so in such a timely manner and work their tails off hard enough that it makes forgiveness easier. With some the prices are so high and there was such disregard for doing anything right no matter what their wrong was that it falls more on the other extreme where forgiving is much tougher. Grudge? If enacted to be about vengeance or even a sense of justice to just make the other hurt also that is where it could be a problem. If just to the extent to protect ourselves is it really a grudge then?
It is made harder by those who simply don't care how much they hurt others or what their responsibility is. That makes a grudge so much easier and i think the desire for vengeance even would be higher. Some people are less inclined to that than others of course and some will cut your leg off if you step on their toes and damn well make sure you can't get to a doctor about it and bleed to death.
For me this is a very personal issue as there is someone i would want to forgive, yet the price is very high, i am paying a price in changing in ways of being a less caring person as it has left me alone in my pain being disbelieved, yet there is not one sign in the slightest way the other does not actually prefer it this way no matter if i would pay even with my life.
Forgiving is a matter of degree and we can't do it falsely. Also the situations we can forgive are a matter of degree and the best we can do is try to make sure we don't err. I struggle with this mightily as i personally feel in one situation that what the other person did amounted to leaving me drowning while locked in a cage to where it is ensured that i would drown. Negligence, spite, or the other person turning away in self-protection all ends up the same.
It is so much easier to forgive the less of anything we lose permanently, even if that is potential for who we would be. Being careful with someone who hurt us very deeply maybe isn't a grudge sometimes. It is needed safety. At the same time, when we are holding someone in a cage to where we ensure they drown, can that be a grudge against another that we enforce on someone else? If against only the one who hurt us, how we enact is where we need to be careful. We need to make sure we for our own part do the right thing i suppose. Given we do that, then there is much grey area.
Sorry this is so long. It is every bit catching me in a place where i feel the issue STRONGLY! The not forgiving someone is hurting, yet what i am not forgiving (i am trying yet am overmatched at times) is because the person did something to in ways ensure perpetual pain, which is always wrong.
Read something about a grudge being like drinking poison and hoping the other person would die. There seems a wisdom to this, yet at the same time i have seen grudge done as vengeance where it was ensured the other person would suffer.
I struggle with trying to forgive someone who left me in position to where on something that hurt i will not be believed by most people. I told someone earlier that putting someone in position to where they are forced to be left alone in their pain is a crime, so why would that not apply to me also? It makes actual forgiveness tougher because the pain is still there. It is ensured that the pain has little way of being overcome. For me i am not sure if this is done in apathy from the other, a grudge or punishment, or them shutting down to where they don't function. I can try to not hold a grudge in ways that grudge is actively retribution, yet at the same time forgiving is compromised as the longer that i am not believed, the more the damage to my life and the greater the chance there will end up being damage that will never be overcome.
We can try to forgive with understanding or compassion while we are still hurting, yet isn't part of this based on how great the damage and how negligent / uncaring / unyielding / the other person was or how they tried to put things right in ways that offset any prices we pay and do so in a timely manner to where it isn't like a snowball that grows? Timing seems so crucial in that. If we lost years then forgiving is made harder. That is like someone murdering part of our life and we having to resurrect ourselves. When the onus is on us for what someone else did well of course forgiving is harder.
Problem with holding a grudge is just making sure we don't enact it in active terms that are about vengeance rather than justice. As the line from the movie Gandhi, 'an eye for an eye making the world go blind'.
With some people they care to put things right and do so in such a timely manner and work their tails off hard enough that it makes forgiveness easier. With some the prices are so high and there was such disregard for doing anything right no matter what their wrong was that it falls more on the other extreme where forgiving is much tougher. Grudge? If enacted to be about vengeance or even a sense of justice to just make the other hurt also that is where it could be a problem. If just to the extent to protect ourselves is it really a grudge then?
It is made harder by those who simply don't care how much they hurt others or what their responsibility is. That makes a grudge so much easier and i think the desire for vengeance even would be higher. Some people are less inclined to that than others of course and some will cut your leg off if you step on their toes and damn well make sure you can't get to a doctor about it and bleed to death.
For me this is a very personal issue as there is someone i would want to forgive, yet the price is very high, i am paying a price in changing in ways of being a less caring person as it has left me alone in my pain being disbelieved, yet there is not one sign in the slightest way the other does not actually prefer it this way no matter if i would pay even with my life.
Forgiving is a matter of degree and we can't do it falsely. Also the situations we can forgive are a matter of degree and the best we can do is try to make sure we don't err. I struggle with this mightily as i personally feel in one situation that what the other person did amounted to leaving me drowning while locked in a cage to where it is ensured that i would drown. Negligence, spite, or the other person turning away in self-protection all ends up the same.
It is so much easier to forgive the less of anything we lose permanently, even if that is potential for who we would be. Being careful with someone who hurt us very deeply maybe isn't a grudge sometimes. It is needed safety. At the same time, when we are holding someone in a cage to where we ensure they drown, can that be a grudge against another that we enforce on someone else? If against only the one who hurt us, how we enact is where we need to be careful. We need to make sure we for our own part do the right thing i suppose. Given we do that, then there is much grey area.
Sorry this is so long. It is every bit catching me in a place where i feel the issue STRONGLY! The not forgiving someone is hurting, yet what i am not forgiving (i am trying yet am overmatched at times) is because the person did something to in ways ensure perpetual pain, which is always wrong.
- Post starter
- #63
D
Deleted member 33052
There have been some very worthwhile perspectives shared here - thank you all for contributing!
Here's what I'm coming away with: There are different opinions on what it means to hold a grudge, and protecting ourselves from further hurt should not be considered holding a grudge. A real grudge would involve some degree of retaliatory behaviour.
It seems like there are different opinions on forgiveness, as well, but I now think that when someone *tries* to forgive, or believes that they have forgiven when the wounds are still raw, they are forgiving with their brain, but not with their emotions. Not with their bodies. And that would cause further problems because their thoughts and feelings would conflict, and one thing we know well is that you can't lie to your body.
Ok, wise friends, thoughts?
Here's what I'm coming away with: There are different opinions on what it means to hold a grudge, and protecting ourselves from further hurt should not be considered holding a grudge. A real grudge would involve some degree of retaliatory behaviour.
It seems like there are different opinions on forgiveness, as well, but I now think that when someone *tries* to forgive, or believes that they have forgiven when the wounds are still raw, they are forgiving with their brain, but not with their emotions. Not with their bodies. And that would cause further problems because their thoughts and feelings would conflict, and one thing we know well is that you can't lie to your body.
Ok, wise friends, thoughts?
- Post starter
- #64
D
Deleted member 33052
Lola, I've always been mystified when someone (usually my daughter) accuses me of holding grudges. When someone hurts me, I'm hurt until I'm not hurt anymore. While I'm hurt, I can't behave toward them the way I normally would. I put up walls. I distance myself. I lick my wounds. . When I've recovered, I'm over it. Period. That's why I'm so gobsmacked when my stbx brings up some nasty comment I made five f*cking years ago. I can't operate that way.
Does this make sense?
Lola Nocheprieta
Diamond Member
Sounds like it's stbx who's holding the grudge, bringing shit up 5 years later ...
- Post starter
- #66
D
Deleted member 33052
Yup, it does. Now that I think about it, I imagine he was still hurting. Being passive-aggressive, though, he never told me. :(
How does getting angry at yourself affect you?
- Moderator
- #68
Sideways
VIP Member
@alrite - it feeds my self-loathing, and that's the number one reason why I sought out therapy in the first place, and also the single biggest factor that drives my suicidal ideation. So, internalising my anger is a pretty big issue. It's not the only fuel for my self-loathing, but it's a pretty big one.
- Post starter
- #69
D
Deleted member 33052
Time to start working on that, Ragdoll? I'm living proof that you can learn to love yourself, and I'm here for you if and when you're ready... :hug:
Panda Bear
Platinum Member
Forgiveness is a tricky subject.
In my past, I've been described as a heartless bitch(lack of grace for others) but not so much anymore. Though love is not my go to feeling. It's a new area of my life, so it takes time to access that part of my. But I'm not heartless.....
I've been known to be over sensitive, and still am....grudge holder? No.....frightened and easily emotionally disrupted? Yes. Cautious after being burned....slow to warm back up....but not a grudge holder per say.
Forgiveness? Is more for use than the other person. But my perspective is biblical, so it's not for everyone. It in no way means that the person who harms you/us gets a free pass back to our lives. It just frees me from the past and helps to move me forward. When the person who offended, repents for what they did? Then, yes...maybe they can have some access to me. If it's safe. But remember, forgiveness is not the same as repentance. They are different.
I'll probably be stoned for this....but I firmly believe in forgiveness and the power it has. In my opinion, it's a huge part of how and why I've been able to move forward in my life. It's not easy by any means and it's a continuous process.
In my past, I've been described as a heartless bitch(lack of grace for others) but not so much anymore. Though love is not my go to feeling. It's a new area of my life, so it takes time to access that part of my. But I'm not heartless.....
I've been known to be over sensitive, and still am....grudge holder? No.....frightened and easily emotionally disrupted? Yes. Cautious after being burned....slow to warm back up....but not a grudge holder per say.
Forgiveness? Is more for use than the other person. But my perspective is biblical, so it's not for everyone. It in no way means that the person who harms you/us gets a free pass back to our lives. It just frees me from the past and helps to move me forward. When the person who offended, repents for what they did? Then, yes...maybe they can have some access to me. If it's safe. But remember, forgiveness is not the same as repentance. They are different.
I'll probably be stoned for this....but I firmly believe in forgiveness and the power it has. In my opinion, it's a huge part of how and why I've been able to move forward in my life. It's not easy by any means and it's a continuous process.
- Post starter
- #71
D
Deleted member 33052
No stoning here - seems no one wants to share their stash. :p
PB, can you explain what forgiveness entails for you? Does that mean the slate is wiped clean, like it never happened?
Panda Bear
Platinum Member
The slate is never wiped clean @Mal Content. My brain and body will always remember what happened and I will never be able to forget those things. What matters is that the memory and the pain associated with the trauma, will fade and the pain slowly becomes less and less.
When I think back on what happened to me, or the memories surface, I can look at them and say 'this hurts' or 'I'm really sad....this person hurt me'. But then I can, after feeling the pain, put the memory away and no longer be ruled or owned by it. Sure, they will still surface(and are right now), but forgiveness frees me from the chains that bind me to the people who harmed me.
Forgiveness in no way means that I have to allow those people back to my life. They are gone, for good reason, they're not safe. But can and do forgive them for hurting me. This allows me to be free from them, my pain is no longer tied to those people and they no longer have control over me. I have control over my own thoughts and feelings, they can no longer hurt me. YES, many times I am flooded with hurt and pain as a result of what they did. I grieve those feelings, again, feel them, and know that I am okay now. They can't hurt me anymore. I get a little sad and ask God to please help me to take my pain too. He will bear the burden with me. Ultimately, they will be judged for their actions and I don't have to worry about it any more.
Forgiveness is a continual process that takes time and practice. It happens over and over again, as the pain will always be here. It'll just lessen over time.
For example, forgiving my mom allowed me to move forward and out of a victim mode and into a survivor/freedom place. It also helps me to leave the destructive relationship behind and then the best part of all? I've now got many, wonderful new people in my life. Two of them are my replacement parents who love me so much! If I hadn't forgiven my mom, I'd still be stuck in they cycle of believing that she had to be my parent. I would still be tied to her and now I'm not.
Anyways remember, my view is biblical...it's not for everyone and I fully understand that forgiveness is a tricky subject. Especially among trauma survivors. This is me, and it works for me, hopefully it makes sense.
When I think back on what happened to me, or the memories surface, I can look at them and say 'this hurts' or 'I'm really sad....this person hurt me'. But then I can, after feeling the pain, put the memory away and no longer be ruled or owned by it. Sure, they will still surface(and are right now), but forgiveness frees me from the chains that bind me to the people who harmed me.
Forgiveness in no way means that I have to allow those people back to my life. They are gone, for good reason, they're not safe. But can and do forgive them for hurting me. This allows me to be free from them, my pain is no longer tied to those people and they no longer have control over me. I have control over my own thoughts and feelings, they can no longer hurt me. YES, many times I am flooded with hurt and pain as a result of what they did. I grieve those feelings, again, feel them, and know that I am okay now. They can't hurt me anymore. I get a little sad and ask God to please help me to take my pain too. He will bear the burden with me. Ultimately, they will be judged for their actions and I don't have to worry about it any more.
Forgiveness is a continual process that takes time and practice. It happens over and over again, as the pain will always be here. It'll just lessen over time.
For example, forgiving my mom allowed me to move forward and out of a victim mode and into a survivor/freedom place. It also helps me to leave the destructive relationship behind and then the best part of all? I've now got many, wonderful new people in my life. Two of them are my replacement parents who love me so much! If I hadn't forgiven my mom, I'd still be stuck in they cycle of believing that she had to be my parent. I would still be tied to her and now I'm not.
Anyways remember, my view is biblical...it's not for everyone and I fully understand that forgiveness is a tricky subject. Especially among trauma survivors. This is me, and it works for me, hopefully it makes sense.
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