Does "validation" actually help you?

[Sideways]

Have you talked about that with your T? That sounds like there might be a cognitive distortion buried there somewhere.

I'd go further - this sounds like the very common Defectiveness/Shame schema that is so so common with cptsd.

That schema is essentially a core belief that one is defective, bad, unloveable or inferior to others, and often has the belief that the person would be rejected if their 'true self' was discovered by others.

The key difference is essentially that a cognitive distortion is going to attach to certain thoughts in particular situations. Whereas a schema is going to be an underlying belief that is present pretty much all the time, and will cloud thoughts, feelings and beliefs in a much wider range of situations.

A schema is also going to generate cognitive distortions. Your brain will interpret things in a way that is distorted, so that the situation fits with the underlying schema.

So, while it may be sufficient to tackle a cognitive distortion when it arises by challenging the thought, changing a schema is going to be a slower process of rebuilding your self concept. It's still very possible with a good T, but I've found it helpful in my own recovery to be able to identify the ways that my self-concept is fundamentally dysfunctional and skewed, so that I can work on rebuilding to something that is much more realistic and healthy.

 

[DogwoodTree]

she's the one who's 'wrong' and the appropriate thing would be for her to accept your preferred method of communication

If this were just a mother-daughter thing, then perhaps. But she's also my boss. She gets to dictate certain things as a condition of my continued employment. I could refuse to cooperate and be passive-aggressive about it, but that seems childish and manipulative. So I do my best to accommodate her desires, which ends up with her walking all over me. I think I don't understand where the line is between giving her what she wants because she's my boss vs. taking care of myself, and I try to err on the side of giving too much instead of not enough.

And then there's the whole spiritual side of things, where she believes her position represents God's will in all of this. It feels like she triangulates God into the mix. And I don't have a clear enough sense of who God is, separate from her, to know any differently.

Have you talked about that with your T? That sounds like there might be a cognitive distortion buried there somewhere.

Tons...it ends up being the main topic more often than not.

That schema is essentially a core belief that one is defective, bad, unloveable or inferior to others, and often has the belief that the person would be rejected if their 'true self' was discovered by others.

Except I have an overwhelming amount of evidence from multiple sources, not just family, that I'm not particularly enjoyable to be around. (Actually, my family does want me around, but only if I act the way they want me to.) When it comes to social relationships, I'm a flunk. When I let people in, they either lose interest or they're hurt, and either way, they leave or at the least, start minimizing contact. I'm awkward, distant, confused, and depressed. No one who is healthy wants that in their lives to any significant degree.

Asperger's, depression, and PTSD make me defective, by definition. I don't want to put the burden on people of having to be around me.

I actually tried to see that attitude as being prideful...that somehow pride makes me think I'm above being accepted in my imperfections...and defeat that self-defective stance by condemning it as sinful. It didn't work. The added guilt just helped drive me deeper into the darkness.

What do you think it would take for you to accept yourself as 'ok' just the way you are?

I've tried hard to imagine a scenario where this might occur, and pursued what seemed like possibilities. Nothing's worked out to give those results. The only thing that's come close is to see myself as so completely defective that no one could possibly insult me beyond what I already think of myself (although I've not completely achieved this goal yet). Then the anxiety is a bit more manageable, the emptiness is less consuming, and the loneliness is less debilitating. And then occasionally, there's a nice enough conversation with someone where I need absolutely nothing from that person, and so have a little more bandwidth to just let things be what they are...lonely, empty, and unfixable, but also tolerable.

This all sounds so dark and despicable...sorry. It comes from a desire to be functional in some way, even if that way looks self-defeating on the surface.

 

[scout86]

Asperger's, depression, and PTSD make me defective, by definition.

I've got to get this one out of the way first. Everyone here is defective. If I expand on that, pretty much EVERYONE is, somehow, defective. You're mother certainly is. I would be willing to bet, if assessed by a competent professional, she'd get a label or two of her very own. Even someone like my T, who passes for "normal" most of the time. He has ADHD, he's absent minded, he's kind of disorganized, and he can't lose the weight he wants to lose (yet) because he likes pork chops and ice cream too much. Yet, he's very good at what he does and has helped a lot of people. (shrug?) I guess I'd prefer the word "different" to "defective". Defective seems a bit harsh.

But she's also my boss.

True. But, I still think, as a boss, she's handling this "wrong". If you're a boss and manage people as a part of that, best practices suggests that you hire people who are capable of doing their jobs, then you let them do that the best way they can. You don't demand that they do it like YOU would do it, as long as their way works. You let them make the best possible use of their own skills. You also encourage and reward them. That's not a matter of being nice, it's a matter of "that's how you get the best work from your people". Bosses who function by the Attila the Hun, my way or the highway, school of management are NOT getting the best possible from their employees, they're satisfying their own egos and deficiencies.

I think I don't understand where the line is between giving her what she wants because she's my boss vs. taking care of myself, and I try to err on the side of giving too much instead of not enough

In your situation, I'm not sure there IS a line. I don't think she wants there to be one either. As near as I can tell, she'd be a terrible person to work for, whether you were her kid or not. Worse, actually, as her kid because you can't just quit and walk away. (Well, you can, but it would be complicated and have more consequences.)

I'm awkward, distant, confused, and depressed. No one who is healthy wants that in their lives to any significant degree.

The best thing that ever happened to me was totally unplanned. I graduated from high school and moved far enough away that I could live on my own. I found, once I was on my own, to my utter amazement, I was getting different feedback from people than I'd ever gotten before. People who didn't know me, who didn't associate me with any particular past, were WAY more accepting than I expected. It took awhile to process this. At the time, I didn't understand what all was going on, I just realized that I was "ok" (more or less) where I was, and "not ok" in my parent's house, so I never went back. (Kind of looked at it as doing both my mother and myself a favor, actually.) While I've been reading what you write, I keep thinking about what my life would have been like if I hadn't been able to escape. The answer, I think, is that it would have been a lot like yours. Granted, I've never been able to establish and maintain a marriage and I don't have kids. (I know I'd have been a terrible parent. I just have no clue how to do it, at all.) But, if I hadn't had the chance to escape, I think my view of myself would be a lot like yours. I suppose that's why I have such a hard time believing you're that terrible. You seem like a very bright, thoughtful, and sensitive person, to me. Someone who cares about other people a LOT. That's important stuff.

And then there's the whole spiritual side of things, where she believes her position represents God's will in all of this. It feels like she triangulates God into the mix. And I don't have a clear enough sense of who God is, separate from her, to know any differently.

A good friend of mine once suggested that I read the whole Bible, front to back, like a book. I did. It was surprising. There's a lot of good stuff in there that doesn't make it into the sermons on Sunday. I don't know if you've done that or not, but I'm going to suggest that you read the New Testament that way. Pay particular attention to what Jesus himself actually says and, especially, to what he does. Things like who he talks to. (The list includes a lot of people he actually wasn't "supposed" to be talking to.) Pay attention to how he treats who, and what he says about hypocrites. There's a lot in there about discerning who's on his side and who's not. My personal opinion is he'd have some issues with your mother. I'm not a religious scholar, by any means, but the fact that your mother thinks her position represents God's will probably says more about her than it does about God.

I actually tried to see that attitude as being prideful...that somehow pride makes me think I'm above being accepted in my imperfections..

That one actually made me laugh because I tried exactly the same thing, or had it put to me like that by a church elder, only I was willing to accept that maybe I wasn't the absolute worst person in the entire universe. If we're going to look at this from a Christian perspective, if those imperfections were given to you by God, it must have been for a purpose. God's not mean (at least that's not my perception), so the purpose wouldn't be to punish you. Maybe there's something there that can be used to his greater glory, as they say? Paul went on and on about what a miserable excuse for a person he was (to the point that I was a bit suspicious of his actual motives). His thesis was that God could use EVEN HIM. So maybe there's food for thought there?

This all sounds so dark and despicable...sorry. It comes from a desire to be functional in some way, even if that way looks self-defeating on the surface.

It sounds dark, because you're in kind of a dark place right now. "Despicable"? That I don't see. The desire be "functional" (it would probably be more accurate to say "more functional than you are now", because it's pretty clear that you're functioning, even if you're not happy with the situation) is a good thing. It comes across that you're trying to work through this stuff. And, there's a lot of stuff. And, you've thought about it, and you're smart enough that you've done a good job of thinking about it. Personally, I'm having a real hard time seeing YOU as the problem, or as being that "defective". But, I'm also having a hard time seeing how you could develop a more accurate view of yourself when so many of the people around you want you to fill that role. What about your husband? Does he think you're hard to be around? Your kids? (Everyone thinks someone is hard to be around some of the time, so consider that before you answer.) I can't help but wonder if the reason you come across, here, as thoughtful, sensitive, and interesting is that you're being "the real you" here, more than you do in much of your regular life. (Sorry, I'm kind of rambling. I'm also about to make myself late. Again. LOL)

 

[DogwoodTree]

Everyone here is defective. If I expand on that, pretty much EVERYONE is, somehow, defective.

Okay, this is true. That Cassandra Phenomenon, for instance, could apply in a great many types of situations: spouses of stroke victims, parents of very low-functioning children, adult child caretakers of elderly Alzheimer's patients, etc. Everyone brings their own flavors of challenges to a relationship that make them not-ideal to be in relationship with. Some more than others.

And some of us are more aware of the challenges we present to those in relationship with us than are others. As you've attested, for example, if someone is aware of the struggle caused by his defects, and he takes ownership of the responsibility, not blaming his wife for the suffering he causes her from his shortcomings, it gives her support and encouragement in the work she's doing to compensate for him. There's a lot to be said for that dynamic. A lot.

Still, my particular flavor makes it very difficult for me to enjoy a relationship at all because it takes so much work to interact with other people, and sensory sensitivities are a big issue for me, and then there's all the dysfunctional stuff, too. And despite all the effort, it's very difficult for other people to enjoy me because I can't be comfortably and easily available to them for a more typical style of intimacy.

I'm learning to accept this fact, and not beat myself up so much for not "fitting in" better, for being so different. But accepting the problems doesn't make the problems go away. Instead, I work on getting more comfortable with solitude. Sometimes I'm okay with that, and sometimes it rips me apart inside.

You don't demand that they do it like YOU would do it, as long as their way works. You let them make the best possible use of their own skills.

Due to the exact nature of our work, I wonder if this is as relevant for us as it might be in other careers. But at the same time, I've had other people in our industry make comments about how I will have to find my own sense of identity to carry on after my mom retires...that I can't rely on replicating her style 100%. Problem is, I'm pushing for more autonomy than what she's been willing to give.

I don't know if you've done that or not, but I'm going to suggest that you read the New Testament that way.

Yes, I've studied the Bible a great deal, from multiple perspectives over decades' of time, so much so that I have a really hard time reading it with a "clean slate." There are layers and layers of interpretations and messages and arguments and so on that I hear rattling around in my head when I read the Bible, regardless of the translation (and I've studied several). I'm not a Bible scholar, either, but I have Bible scholars in my family, and it was a pervasive part of my childhood and adulthood. My mom also has a ministry-related, advanced degree. She leads Bible study groups that she records and posts on YouTube.

if those imperfections were given to you by God, it must have been for a purpose.

See, I don't think God "gives" imperfections, afflictions, or disasters. I know some Bible stories report it that way, and I guess there are situations where He inflicts punishment. But I don't think every sickness is God's will, that He wanted it to happen. Mostly I think we either bring it on ourselves or each other, or crap just happens.

Is Asperger's for a purpose? Maybe. To some degree. If I had been raised by healthy, Aspie parents, or even by healthy, neurotypical parents, I could've been a healthy Aspie with a lot of unique gifts to offer the world. Maybe.

Is childhood trauma for a purpose? I don't think so. I think that shit is stuff God grieves deeply over. Maybe He can redeem it. Maybe He won't. I don't know. I don't think His priorities resemble ours very much.

So all that leaves me with very little understanding of what He wants, what He cares about, what He'll do, or what He thinks about me.

What about your husband? Does he think you're hard to be around? Your kids?

My DH thinks very highly of me, but there's a lot of me he doesn't see because it scares him too much (same thing with the kids). Last year while we were seeing the T together, I tried exposing more of my inner thoughts and struggles to him. He ended up getting very depressed. This year I've backed off and kept more things to myself, and he's doing much better. T said at one point that DH needs to know the reality...that's the only way he'll mature into it all. I'm sure he's right. And there are some things I keep an open channel of communication with DH about. But there are other things he's just not able to handle. And when the T moved away, I was so messed up over all that, I've just not been able to pull myself back into that level of openness with DH. Plus it's been a really tough several months with my mom since we had a crisis that started in early May. That's sucked up a lot of the energy and focus I might've used to keep working on things with DH.

that you're being "the real you" here, more than you do in much of your regular life

It still feels filtered here. I can't think of anyone I've ever felt completely honest and comfortable and "real" with. Does that ever happen with anyone?

 

[Ms Priss]

I just feel an intense need ti reply to this thread. I believe I was meant to read it.

I have suspected for some time I am on the spectrum. I have mentioned it to psychiatrists before, but they just blew me off...I think it is easier to put other labels on you and fill you full of drugs. I recently started therapy with a trauma counselor (had therapy in the past but not for trauma). I had two sessions with the new therapist and to be fair to her she is very nice person. The third session I decided to be brave and mention the feelings I have about being autistic...I really wish I had not because her whole demeanor changed and she greatly distanced herself. It was almost like she did not know what to say or do...and it was not all in my head either. I have decided to follow through with the therapy for awhile and see what happens.

You do express yourself marvelously in writing...so much of what you wrote I could relate to at my very core, but I could not be as articulate as you. So I want to thank you for being so open because you have touched my very soul.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I really wish I had not because her whole demeanor changed and she greatly distanced herself.

I've had something similar happen--including with a couple of therapists. It's like you become some sort of strange alien to them all of a sudden. Almost like they're not quite sure whether you're stupid or dangerous. I'm sure it has more to do with their own ignorance than something you or I might be doing wrong. The good Ts just come out and say where the edge of their expertise is, and explain what they can and can't offer. The best ones ask you to help educate them, and then actually listen.

FWIW, I've found male Ts seem to handle this situation better than female Ts. I don't have a huge sampling to draw from, but it's been consistent.

I have decided to follow through with the therapy for awhile and see what happens.

So back to the relevance of my original question, then...what response from your T would have been more helpful? What was it, if you can pinpoint it, that you were actually looking for? And what are you wanting now as you continue in therapy?

I'm looking for specifics, if you can nail them down and would like to share. I'm trying to understand what I need so I can ask for what I need. People can't meet my needs if I can't identify them. I know the typical offerings don't help and actually sometimes hurt. But I haven't figured out what would work better.

The few times something has helped, it seemed like what I most valued is that the person didn't follow a script...they fully engaged and creatively adapted to what they were hearing from me. It's weird, because I rely so heavily on rules and scripts and patterns in order to interact with other people. But it's when those rules are put away and the respect, caring, and attentiveness come across more organically that I can actually start to believe that the other person sees me. If I detect any hint of pattern, script, or platitude, I struggle to find any value in anything they say after that.

 

[Ms Priss]

I am so blown away because I have never heard anyone express what you are saying and it is so me. I get so hung up on rules and get so confused because no one seems to follow them...they can break every rule and come out smelling like a rose. I follow all the rules and still end up being ostracized and such...my mind simply cannot make any sense of it at all...but I cannot for the life of me be a rule breaker...that sounds foolish when I say that, but that is just the way it is...rigid would be the best way to describe it.

What was I looking for? That is hard to pinpoint. But I think I was looking for respect...to be respected for the person I am..and maybe that is asking too much from a counselor because they are clinical. Most of the time I just feel people cannot hear what I am saying, and I do not know how to say it any other way; but it is apparent I am not making connection. Interaction with people is near impossible for me anymore because it all seems like games to me and I cannot get in the game. So in a word...respect for the person I am and my humanity.

Where do her and I go from here? I would like to have a clear cut answer. I know when we initially met she thought I had a clear picture of what the situations were and what I wanted. I know I have to deal with the trauma so we are working at getting me more stabilized in that area.

I am a senior citizen, divorced, no children, and no real support system, and not socially connected or adept so there is a big feeling of void there. Also live in a very rural area with not a lot to offer. I want to work at developing some sort of a life for myself...I know no one can do that for me...I have to do it...but I just keep isolating more and more. I do see life coach at a local women's shelter. I am much more able to be open with her.

So I just continue to get more confused and did not answer your questions at all.

 

[DogwoodTree]

So I just continue to get more confused and did not answer your questions at all.

I think this has more to do with lacking a clear answer than your lack of communication skills.

I am so blown away because I have never heard anyone express what you are saying and it is so me.

I've been having this experience recently in a private conversation on here...

rigid would be the best way to describe it.

Have you found ways to help yourself think less rigidly?

A couple of years ago, I started learning about the Meyers-Briggs personality type system. To learn that all these various personality types are just as legitimate in their approaches to life, even though so different, has been incredibly eye-opening to me. Before that, there was "right" and everything else was "wrong". What was "right" was determined by logical deduction based on what I perceived to be my mom's values and priorities in the world (because I thought she was the most-right person available to me). Studying MBTI has given me a lot of shades of gray and all kinds of other colors between black and white. I've still got a long ways to go, but this at least gives me a reference point for what "shades of gray" might be possible when looking at something that seems black and white.

But I think I was looking for respect...to be respected for the person I am

I think this is really getting at what's important to me, too. For me, it's not "do you like me?" so much as "do I contribute something of value to your life?" It's not so much "am I a VIP person to you?" so much as "is my perspective valid and helpful, even when I disagree with others?" I think I'm less focused on the "person" of myself and others, and more on what each of us "produces". Task-orientation rather than people-orientation. But that still boils down to respect, in a way. Is what I produce valued? Are my thoughts and insights helpful?

So then, when I'm struggling with something, what is it I actually want from someone? It's not a generic, "whatever you think has value", because if everything is equally of value, then nothing has value. It's more, maybe, "I've never thought of it that way. Oh wow. Well that makes a connection for me on something else I've been working on..." and then maybe the person contributes their own ideas in a way that challenges my edges as well, those areas where I've been trying to make sense of something, and then connections between ideas keep happening. That's what seems to be most helpful to me, although there are times when I can't get my ideas-generator going, and then I don't know what would be helpful at all.

I want to work at developing some sort of a life for myself...I know no one can do that for me...I have to do it...but I just keep isolating more and more.

I haven't figured out this piece, either. People say to just spend time around other people, and the relationships will happen. But I've tried that, and it didn't work. It was actually very painful and disappointing and discouraging. I've found if I can find something that is task-focused, like martial arts classes, then I can focus on the task and sometimes a modicum of relationship develops with people around me. But it still hasn't turned into "friendships" where I feel known and supported and valued for exactly who I am. I still don't even really know who I am.

Do you have a sense of "who you are"? Your "person" rather than what you "produce"?

 

[Ms Priss]

I am not a performance based person at all. I like to work and feel great pride in a job well done, but do not think that defines who I am. I see so many people who are workaholics and just cannot stop and without that they would have no worth at all. I find society to be very shallow...like this is what I do and this is what I have and on and on...but I always want to know but "who are you"...it makes people crazy.

Years ago I had a clearer picture of who I was...more values based than anything. I had another recovery years ago and worked very hard at determining what was important to me. Unfortunately for me I did not go far enough with it and ended up marrying a psychopath which blew everything I ever believed in to absolute smitherins. I have been out of that marriage for six years. I have made some headway in healing, but it has been very slow.

But back to the respect thing. I want to be respected just because I am a living breathing human being...not because I performed in some way. I went that route with people pleasing, and it was disastrous for me.

I have read so much stuff I am on virtual overload. I have backed off some in the chance if I give myself some space and time i might be able to digest some of the info instead of desperately searching all the time.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I am not a performance based person at all. I like to work and feel great pride in a job well done, but do not think that defines who I am.

I always thought it was "wrong" to be performance-focused...I guess I still do, and there's some shame around it. I struggled with letting my kids watch Thomas the Train because there was such an emphasis on being "useful." But once I started letting myself be task-focused instead of people-focused...I think that's a different thing, and not so bad. It's just how I function. Relationships are overwhelming and not very successful for me most of the time. When I focus on what I'm doing and the ideas I think about, things go better for me. I'm more stable and productive, and feel better. It doesn't have to be people-pleasing in nature. In fact, sometimes this makes people around me particularly annoyed. And it doesn't have to be a prestige thing: "I'm a doctor" or "I'm a lawyer." But I'm way more successful at tasks than I am at relationships. Actually, to the degree I can frame a relationship as a task, the more I can find some level of "success" by "performing" to the demands of that task. I never feel "known" or accepted or loved that way, but at least I'm functional.

did not go far enough with it and ended up marrying a psychopath which blew everything I ever believed in to absolute smitherins. I have been out of that marriage for six years. I have made some headway in healing, but it has been very slow.

I'm pretty sure my step-father was a psychopath. Haven't seen him for 25 years, and I'm still recovering. How long were you married to that guy?

 

[Ms Priss]

I think your ideas are good...we just expressed it differently. Being functional is a wonderful thing...I love it when I am and am incredibly hard on myself when I am not. Functionality for me now is I am doing these things (tasks) for myself not to gain acceptance or approval. When I was with the psychopath (17 years), I for the longest time believed it was me and twisted and turned myself into a pretzel doing things that totally compromised me and my value system thinking it would fix things..well, guess what; it never made a difference and I experienced incalculable damage to myself. So it is a process for me to learn what fits me and what doesn't...I still make some bad choices , but it is better than it was.

Also another big lesson was learning to say no without explanations. The explanations just complicate things and most people do not understand and to a degree do not care. So a simple no will suffice.

I think you are doing very well. To me with a limited life you do have a life. Maybe it is not exactly as you would want it and some things are difficult and painful...but it is very functional. You have a husband and although there are some issues there it sounds like it is workable. You have children, and you probably are doing a good job raising them...not a perfect job but a good job. You are employed, and you probably are doing a very good job there as well...I know the family thing makes it difficult and painful, but the fact remains you are doing it. So maybe you could lighten up a bit about yourself.

I do not think it is bad thing or a wrong thing to be performance based...I try very hard to let people be who they are. It is simply a matter of me defining what fits me and what doesn't. Everyone is at a different place in their journey...for me at this time in my life the thing I desire most is peace of mind...and I am beginning to see it is my own mind that is preventing that so that is why I sought out counseling because I simply do not have the right tools in the shed to do it myself...I need some direction.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Maybe it is not exactly as you would want it and some things are difficult and painful...but it is very functional.

It is functional on the outside on a lot of levels--looks good on paper, but feels distant and unreal to me. I've about given up on the whole friends thing. I struggle with justifying therapy, since it feels so disconnected and irrelevant most of the time. I shopped around for this T, and no one else even came close to being as qualified and also a decent fit for me personality-wise. And yet, it seems he's really struggling to come up with anything that will help. But, whatever. I'm not sure I even care anymore.