Does "validation" actually help you?

[Sideways]

Whether you're over-reacting is going to depend on different factors, and your conclusion will be subjective (ie. it's not going to be right/wrong, it's going to be an opinion, which may change over time). So, feedback from other people may be relevant, depending on whether you think their insight is valuable/informed.

Your feelings will also be relevant in your conclusion about whether you're over-reacting. They're one (valuable) source of information. Bit there will be pther factors as well: like your relationship with mum, your values, and your thoughts (which may require a bit of dissection, particularly for signs of cognitive distortions).

So, "Am I over-reacting?" is going to require a bit of your own subjective analysis of different factors. It's the kind of question we take to our T to help us analyse, or put to this forum for ideas. Then we decide on our course of action.

Boundaries, and the course of action you settle on, is going to be something you decide after thinking about your feelings, your relationship with mum (and how important it is emotionally and practically), your values (like, "I tolerate a lot of crap from family because family is important" vs "I am a decent human, and need to be treated with dignity").

Effective boundaries that promote your well being and healthy relationships with people who are involved in your life? Are difficult to decide on, and will change over time. Particularly as we recover. The best we can do is base them on behaviours and interactions to date, and what we think are likely interactions and needs going into the future. We will often find that we've set a boundary, but the relationship changes, and the boundary needs to shift again. That's how relationships work. Your mum may have been heavily involved in your life as an infant (feeding you for example), but is not as intimately involved now. So, the boundaries have shifted. You've grown, you've established your own life and identity, and her role is different. That's all nornal and healthy, and is going to influence your new boundaries with mum.

But you've also become an individual in terms of your values. You can define those yourself now, and they may highlight some need for changing the dynamics of the relationship again.

There is no right or wrong. And there isn't necessarily a boundary that will be perfect for your current situation and for the rest of your life. I went no contact for a while with my parents, because it's what was needed at the time. My boundaries went waaaay out. But then we decided to repair our relationship, and the boundaries shifted again.

So, what we're aiming for, ultimately, is what are my needs and values right now, and where do my boundaries need to be to protect that? Our feelings, and insights from other people, are all going to inform your decision. There is no one factor that will give you a definitive answer.

Other people's insights vary a lot in how valuable they are. Sometimes, with someone we trust? Them telling us "You're over-reacting" could be extremely helpful. But at other times, from other people? Not nearly as much.

 

[scout86]

Those are all really good questions. Some, I have no idea. A few, maybe I have some thoughts.

How do I determine when I'm being overly sensitive vs. when my concerns are legitimate?

I'm not even sure what "over sensitive" IS, other than something someone says because they didn't appreciate your reaction. I mean that quite literally. I'm not good with people, so I'll relate this to horses. I've known horses who were sensitive enough that it caused problems when they were forced to deal with people who were inexperienced of generally clueless. But the horse wasn't too sensitive, the person wasn't up to the task. It's not the horse's responsibility to dumb themselves down to the human's level. The horse may not be suited for a job that requires a dull horse, but the truth is, it's probably a really good horse, an exceptionally good horse, in the right situation.

With people? I've found, when I've explored it a bit, the people who tell me I'm being "too sensitive" are people who were being hurtful and hoped I wouldn't notice, or something along those lines.

Now, it's possible to misunderstand and be hurt by something that wasn't actually intended to be hurtful. That's a different deal. And, I'd be willing to bet you see that when people explain their actual intent and you know whether or not you can believe them. The ones who say "Oh, I didn't mean it, you're being too sensitive", most of the time that's passive aggressive meaness.

How do I set boundaries with her when I can't identify what she does that's so hurtful until after it's over and I'm alone and have time to think it over?

This one, I don't know. I had the same problem with my mother and I "solved" it by avoiding her. Actually, there were a few incidents, towards the end of her live, when she'd do this stuff via email. I started forwarding the emails to my T and asking "What do I do about THIS?" (He's ok with that sort of thing.) He offered insights, which was hugely valuable. He made suggestions and helped me think things through. On one really memorable occasion where she just wouldn't quit, he finally told me exactly what to say. I did. She quit. Weird, but it was very useful.

What do I do with the emotions when someone else says I'm over-reacting because they don't see what I see about something my mom has said or done?

This is also something I don't have a good answer for. I know exactly what you mean, I think. I tried to stay out of those situations. Still do, in fact, because I still have some contact with a few extended family members. Their perception of my mother is vastly different than mine. Because their experience of her is vastly different. There's no way they are ever going to believe me, without having seen it. Once in awhile, something will come up where maybe I can put a little different spin on things and give them a chance to consider that maybe they don't know the whole story, but I don't work at it. I just take the "Your mother was such a sweet wonderful person" stuff with several grains of salt. It goes in one ear & out the other because I know they don't have enough information to know better and I know I can't successfully give it to them. (At least I believe I can't. It's never worked in the past.)

With my mother, I tried to aim for "polite but detached" when I had to deal with her. There was no point in getting emotionally invested because it was just going to blow up in my face. (I wish I had better news on that!)

 

[Tinyflame]

I can't seem to separate myself from her emotions.

Could that be co-dependence, or walking on eggshells?

Boundaries are what you set; if you know in the past how awful you are left feeling, then you know that could be likely again. Due to whatever, and especially if after the fact you realize what has occurred- minimizing, gas-lighting, guilt-tripping, drama, etc.

There seems to be a percentage of the population that will tell you your feelings are "wrong", or you're "wrong" yourself, just because they don't like what they're hearing.

Yes, very much so. ^

With people? I've found, when I've explored it a bit, the people who tell me I'm being "too sensitive" are people who were being hurtful and hoped I wouldn't notice, or something along those lines.

Again, yes. ^ Seems to me insensitivity isn't necessarily all that great. Nor is sensitivity all bad. Or why would insenitive people pretend to be sensitive?

Keep going @DogwoodTree . :hug:

But the horse wasn't too sensitive, the person wasn't up to the task. It's not the horse's responsibility to dumb themselves down to the human's level. The horse may not be suited for a job that requires a dull horse, but the truth is, it's probably a really good horse, an exceptionally good horse, in the right situation.

That's beautiful @scout86 ^ , thank you.

 

[DogwoodTree]

So, feedback from other people may be relevant, depending on whether you think their insight is valuable/informed.

If I had a sizable support network, with people I was able to trust, and who were also available to me and interested in looking at the details with me, and who also had enough wisdom and insight to really be able to contribute, this might work. Problem is, I don't have that. My DH tries, but he's so conflict-averse that he really struggles to keep a clear head on this stuff. My T--there's only so much we can talk about in one hour every other week (his schedule has been spotty the past few months, averaging about every other week for a session). I have a couple of friends, sort of. I talk to each of them every few weeks. None of them has gotten involved to the point where they could read emails from my mom on a regular basis and give me feedback and help me think it through. And on here, I have to be so careful not to reveal identifying information. My mom has a nation-wide, public presence in a particular niche community, and by association, so do I. I looked for a local support group of some kind I might be able to join and get more help, but nothing that's available seems to be even remotely a good fit. Where do I find people who could give me feedback?

There is no right or wrong. And there isn't necessarily a boundary that will be perfect for your current situation and for the rest of your life.

I'm trying to get this into my head, that it's subjective, that I don't have to be able to fully justify my boundaries to my mom. But she thinks I do. And she's threatening to fire me if I can't justify my needs to her. So I get even more flustered because of the fear.

I've found, when I've explored it a bit, the people who tell me I'm being "too sensitive" are people who were being hurtful and hoped I wouldn't notice, or something along those lines.

There are times when my DH or my T have thought I was being too sensitive, and yet, when I look at the things my mom said that I felt were "pokes" but they thought were just genuine expressions of frustration or gratitude or whatever from her, I can hear so clearly the offense that I think she intends in it. I know her much better than either of them do. I've watched her intently all my life. Am I just being paranoid? How can I know?

With my mother, I tried to aim for "polite but detached" when I had to deal with her.

I've been using this approach with my mom. I don't get mean or loud or aggressive or anything with her. I'm extremely neutral emotionally with her, and keep things very surface-level whenever possible. But she has such a deep need for enmeshment and emotional bonding or whatever that she's very easily offended at my distance. She gets much more time around us than any of our other family members do (on average, she sees the kids about every 3 weeks now), and yet she complains that our relationship has ended and she "never" sees the kids and obviously I "want nothing to do with her."

Could that be co-dependence, or walking on eggshells?

I'm sure that has something to do with it. My Ts and I have all talked about how my family is so enmeshed and the struggle to separate from that. I've been working on that issue for years now. But it's like there's this spiritual fish-hook embedded deep inside me that I can't get rid of. I don't know how to be a separate person from her, or from anyone I'm around.

I have the same problem when I'm in a session with my T. Being in the room with him, I automatically start attuning to what I think he expects of me. I lose access to certain layers of my inner world. Everything in me is on high alert to anticipate what he's thinking or wanting or expecting, to try to become what's expected, and not cause problems. I know that's irrational, but I can't stop it. The person I am when I'm alone disappears when I'm around someone else, no matter who that is. Like a chameleon, I automatically take on a certain role that reflects certain aspects of the other person. That's part of why it's so stressful to be in a group of people, because there are too many data streams coming in to be able to accommodate any of them.

I don't have a sense of self around other people. No matter how hard I try, I haven't been able to develop a strong enough sense of "self" to be my "self" around others, not in therapy, not with my friends, not with my family, or my DH, or even my kids. Ever.

 

[scout86]

Everything in me is on high alert to anticipate what he's thinking or wanting or expecting, to try to become what's expected, and not cause problems. I know that's irrational, but I can't stop it.

You can't stop it yet.:)

That sounds totally rational to me, it's just out of context. If you grow up feeling like that skill set is what it takes to survive, it stands to reason you get good at it. The next stage of development might be to build an "on/off" switch. (I'm totally serious.)

I have an advantage. I never could get it "right"as far as my mother was concerned. Long before I reached adulthood, she'd given up on me and I'd given up on the "relationship". As a result, I quit trying so hard, but the thought (feeling?) that I had to try was still very much there.

Your mother is doing the sort of thing mine would have, if she'd thought I was worth the effort. Fortunately for me, she didn't. Your situation is complicated by the financial need to keep a relationship with her. I don't know how you get the chance to learn to be who you really are, more of the time, when the truth is, it's not safe. Your mother is never going to be happy with you thinking for yourself or being your own person. She's not wired that way. She wants you to be who and what SHE wants you to be. Period. I'm sure that's non-negotiable with her.

Here's what I finally decided, for me. I'd rather live under a bridge, in a cardboard box than have to try to construct and maintain a persona to suit someone who doesn't like the person I really am. (The truth is, there are people out in the world who will like you for you.)

 

[The Albatross]

Familial (I got what was available) and peer validation goes a long way with me but clinical/therapeutic validation or from normies doesn't go very far. I didn't read back on this thread.

 

[Beans]

It has helped more than anything.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Familial (I got what was available) and peer validation goes a long way with me

It has helped more than anything

How does it help? What about it changes things for you? It feels like a cheap psychological trick to me. How does it feel genuine to you?

I don't know how you get the chance to learn to be who you really are, more of the time, when the truth is, it's not safe.

It doesn't feel safe with other people, either. I don't think it's what THEY think of me that hurts so much. It's what I think of myself. I suspect I don't have enough "theory of mind" to get that they feel differently about me than I feel about myself. Cognitively, I can understand that might be a possibility. But it doesn't seem real, just an abstract theory that is totally inaccessible when I'm stressed (which is any time I'm around people).

Here's what I finally decided, for me. I'd rather live under a bridge, in a cardboard box than have to try to construct and maintain a persona to suit someone who doesn't like the person I really am.

I considered this. But I have a houseful of kids who are quickly approaching the driving and college years. I know how tight things were for us before I started working for my mom. Having more disposable income to do things for the kids really makes a huge difference in what we can do for them. We don't throw junk at them--we use the money to build their skills and character and exposure to the world and education and work ethic and so on. The extra money also pays for my therapy, which we couldn't have afforded on our previous income. It really scares me to think about going back to that.

 

[Sideways]

I don't think it's what THEY think of me that hurts so much. It's what I think of myself.

This!

This is a symptom of cptsd. And it's going to take a bit of time to redevelop a healthy self-concept, but it does happen:)

Thing is, if people aren't close enough that you can lean on them or trust them, then when they say things like "You're over-reacting", it's probably not backed up with a lot of insight into your situation.

Your relationship with your mum is definitely (definitely) something you can work out in a way that's going to be more helpful and healthy for you. The 'spiritual fish hooks' that keep you enmeshed with family are probably partly from habit and having grown up with them, and partly because family is something that you've grown up placing value on. And that's ok.

But what your feelings are telling you? Seems to be "That family value is coming at the expense of my other values, like valuing people treating me with respect". Which means boundaries need to shift a little.

Shifting boundaries isn't easy. Not only do we need to figure out where we want them to be, we also get resistance from people who don't want things to change. Your mum? May have no interest in things changing.

If your a logical thinker? Use that to your advantage . Write things out. What are my values? What role do I want my mum to have in my life? What are some ways I could make that work?

 

[scout86]

I suspect I don't have enough "theory of mind" to get that they feel differently about me than I feel about myself.

I don't know if you'll find this helpful, but my T suggested that I look at this stuff as "experimentation". Starting with people who are relatively safe. Where it really doesn't matter much if they hate me. That's honestly something I've used this forum for. A place to practice. There are many times when I post something, and say what I really think, just as an experiment, to see what happens. (And I'm usually scared to log back in because I'm sure I've done something wrong, just expressing my opinion.) I think of it as 'exposure therapy'. I figure, worst case, I leave and never come back.:)

 

[intothelight]

What is it about validation that helps you?

Validation from a variety of people can help me to gage my own responses to know whether or not I am on track with regard to acts, emotions, context, etc.

 

[The Albatross]

@DogwoodTree said, "It feels like a cheap psychological trick to me". No, it's not a cheap trick and at some levels I'm not very good at it myself... here's an article on validation and the 6 levels: Understanding Validation: A Way to Communicate Acceptance

An article @ Psych Central says, "If there are words for what we suffer, we move from helplessness to understanding.
If others concur with these words and resonate with their meaning, we are no longer alone." Important Validation for the Aftermath of Adult Trauma