Does "validation" actually help you?

[Ms Priss]

I am racking my brain trying to think what to say to you. The only thing I can say for sure if that I so relate to everything you say...all the frustrations, pain and difficulty. Maybe we are just trying to get a foundation to start from, and it is really difficult. To be honest most of the time anymore that seems like an impossibility...but the one thing I am convinced of at this late stage of my life is it has to be internal...none of the external will fill the void until I am comfortable in my own skin...well, at least relatively. I complicate it horrendously and think it would be even more difficult for you because you have many more obligations and responsibilities than I do.

What I think you were saying is you go through motions but find it very unfulfilling. Years ago I could feel great joy at the littlest things and I miss that terribly because everything seems so empty.

Am about sick to death of looking at things and trying to fix me...there is the theory there is nothing wrong with us except all the BS we were taught and believed...that our true self is perfect.

So anyway for me this is what i have concluded. I was born with autism...then you add all the trauma and depression, etc. As far as the autism is concerned, I believe our brains do function differently...way way differently. Some of the time I am really ok with that now...it means that I can give up that unrelentless search for people like me or being able to connect or to really have friends and all that...it still is very painful because I have a great need for those things, but recognizing the things I have done to get those needs filled have only been damaging to me. So I am hoping the acceptance will help some...rather than resisting it or fighting it or denying it or thinking other people should understand. I do not even understand myself so what makes me think other people would?

I am different...reaching for acceptance. I sometimes wonder if all the trauma would have happened if I was given the proper treatment a long time ago...but I need to put that question down because I didn't and it did. so I can only start where I am.

Not too long ago my sister said to me your life would be so much easier if you were not so intelligent. I think she is right. Intelligence but emotionally wacked. You have been able to channel your abilities for which I greatly admire you. I never got to use mine because I just never could make it work. But anyway I think the intelligence complicates even the smallest matter...at least it does for me'

I still am conflicted about counseling...I feel like you...what can they do? Have an appointment Fri. I will go and see.....

I have no answers for you or for me for that matter.

 

[DogwoodTree]

that our true self is perfect

I've tried to believe this. I think our "true self" is fine if it brings us together with other people enough like us that we feel we belong. But the more I've uncovered my "true self", the more isolated I've become.

it still is very painful because I have a great need for those things, but recognizing the things I have done to get those needs filled have only been damaging to me. So I am hoping the acceptance will help some...rather than resisting it or fighting it or denying it or thinking other people should understand. I do not even understand myself so what makes me think other people would?

My T said today that maybe it's okay that I don't have friends. Maybe that's just who I am, that friendship is too much work for me, and I don't get anything out of it, and that's just the way it is.

Maybe I can come to a place of accepting that. But it doesn't fix the loneliness.

Like you said, how is anyone ever to understand me if I don't understand myself? I'm an enigma, as I believe each autistic person is, but each in our own ways--it's not like we're all different in the same way. We're not.

I still am conflicted about counseling...I feel like you...what can they do? Have an appointment Fri. I will go and see.....

I hope it's productive for you. More often than not, I leave feeling worse than when I went in. I don't think that's necessarily bad--the underlying feelings are always there, and therapy just brings them back to the surface from the places where I've hidden them. But we've not yet found any solutions. We just go around in circles. I'm hoping it's more of an upward spiral than treading the same ground, but I'm plumb out of hope.

Maybe we are just trying to get a foundation to start from, and it is really difficult. To be honest most of the time anymore that seems like an impossibility...but the one thing I am convinced of at this late stage of my life is it has to be internal...none of the external will fill the void until I am comfortable in my own skin

What is it that needs to be done internally, exactly? Happiness? Self-acceptance? Healing? Self-awareness?

I think my sense of self-as-a-person never developed...never had a chance to. I know self-as-preferences, self-as-perspectives, self-as-experiences, and self-as-thoughts. But all those things change indefinitely and unpredictably. There's no stable sense of self-in-all-situations. How do I develop that? How do I hold a constant sense of self in various situations and relationships?

 

[Ms Priss]

When I spoke of your true self, I was referring to your spirit. I believe it is still there buried way down deep beneath all the crap. I believe i have a wondrous beautiful spirit, but I worry I am too far gone to ever gain sight of it again. I have let people shame me and push me around for so long that I seem to have totally disappeared. I have put myself out there in society so many times and in so many ways and it has never worked out...classes, churches, organizations, etc.;I am always the odd one out. Me and my life have not been even remotely normal...I have made some very bad decisions that took me to very bad places and that carry a lot of bad stigma and I cannot seem to move past it. It was not until a little over a year ago that I became aware of just how different I am, and that was when I became unable to make myself vulnerable again...I simply cannot take one more rejection...but at the same time the isolation is killing me. I believe parts of it are me, but I also believe people have there own hangups that put some obstacles in my way...I do not set up the systems.

As far as having a really defined sense of self...I did to a degree at some points in my life...but not a really stable one. Now I have not a clue other than I am messed up and by society's standards...defective...and for the life of me I cannot see anything beyond that. I told the counselor I do not have a self and am not ashamed to admit it. That is a major symptom of borderline personality disorder, but I told her I did not think that diagnosis fit.

Some questions for you:
Are you or have you been very naive?
Do you or have you taken things very literally?

I ask because those have been major factors in my life.

I have gone from a naive loving gullible pollyanna to a bitter old curmudgeon...can hardly stand myself. When I look back it's hard to see how naive I was...it is hard to talk about because it makes me feel very stupid...prime target for a psychopath.

Taking things literally...did not know it at the time...do now. I think that is where the living by the rules thing comes in...not that I am a prude but that my mind just interprets things that way. That made me believe people when they told me things...now I have gone the opposite extreme to where I rarely believe anything anyone says...like do their actions match their words?

Do you take medication?

Have in the past with not good results. And, of course, that came up in therapy. I am resistive which makes them think I am non-compliant.
Sometimes I think I should give it another try, but it scares me because I have had some very bad experiences with the mental health system. The psychiatrist they have there I absolutely abhor. I have limited $ to spend on all this and in this rural area resources are really limited. But I need this depression to lift some. I understand why the depression is there though.

Yes, it throws me when I see how comfortable and secure in themselves some people are...at this stage I have not a clue how to develop that.

One thing I know is no matter what I do I turn people off..not a good feeling or one that promotes self-esteem.

Anyway, enough rambling for now...just going in circles with looping thoughts.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I told the counselor I do not have a self and am not ashamed to admit it. That is a major symptom of borderline personality disorder, but I told her I did not think that diagnosis fit.

Yeah, I don't think the borderline dx fits me, either, but I don't have a good sense of self to hold onto when interacting with people. I just automatically go into mirror mode...reflecting back to them whatever it is they seem to expect, as best I can figure out. Social chameleon. It's an aspie thing, apparently.

https://youtu.be/VJHa9xk16Hw

https://youtu.be/Tf664EjM7r8

Some questions for you:
Are you or have you been very naive?
Do you or have you taken things very literally?

Yes and yes. I hate the whole "inner child" thing because I feel like I've worked so hard to outgrow the naivete, why the hell would I want to go back to it?

Taking things literally is apparently not allowed when dealing with people. If you believe what they actually say, then you have no faith in them. But if you read into what they say, then you're not listening to them. Or maybe that's just my mom.

I think, maybe it's not just "taking things literally" as it is "taking things at face value." If a person says one thing, I tend to believe them. I have a hard time recognizing that someone might be lying or deceptive. I've learned to catch manipulation. But lying is super tough for me identify.

Do you take medication?

No. I tried that while I was in college, but it didn't help. Just caused issues and didn't solve anything.

I do, however, get acupuncture regularly. It's probably cheaper than meds would be, works better, and no side effects. It hasn't solved the problems, but has definitely made the depression and anxiety more manageable.

One thing I know is no matter what I do I turn people off

Yep. Looking like this is probably going to cost me my job and my relationship with my family. I've tried to do everything my mom wants of me to the very best of my understanding and ability. I bend over backwards, I regularly work 60+ hours a week, I go several nights a week with very little sleep, I perform at a very high level. But she's still looking for ways to kick me out, and the latest email from her today has taken us a step closer to that outcome. She says I've been holding back, and that my job performance isn't enough to justify my staying in the company. I really, truly, honestly have no freakin' clue what it is she wants from me that I'm not giving her. My performance far outperforms my sister's. But she's the golden child, so...anything I do is wrong, and anything she does is right, no matter what reality is.

She seems to think that letting me go will open up space for us to fix our personal relationship. But there's no way I want a personal relationship with her if she fires me over reasons she can't even clearly define, despite all the times I've asked her to so that I could adjust to what she's wanting. She's insane, that's the only explanation I can figure.

 

[Ms Priss]

Oh. I had a good laugh out of your saying she is insane! Not at you or your situation at all...I feel great empathy for you and that difficult situation. But how many times I was clearly dealing with insane people and trying to make sense of it or to reason with them I have found insanity comes in many forms, and sometimes it is people who are held in high regard so we must not be the only naive beings!!!!!!

This will sound trite and there were times I hated hearing it, but things will work out for you any way it goes. Sometimes painful things have to happen to make room for better things. I know I have held on way too long in situations that clearly were not working out...have great difficulty letting go.

Family things are tough. The life coach I see tells me I am in the ideal situation (wish I could see it that way). I have no obligations to anyone but myself so I can do whatever I want...she makes it sound so easy Anyway, I was the black sheep in the family. Parents have been dead a long time...Dad died when I was 11 and Mom when I was 26. I have 2 sisters; one older and one younger. the younger one is the waif; no matter what bad behaviors she indulges in people still enable her and fall all over her...we are estranged. The older one was the golden child (the perfect one). I try to have some sort of relationship with her, but there is really nothing there...she feels so superior to me and is so condescending and very passive aggressive...so it has taken me a long time to know I do not want to do that to me anymore...that I deserve better. No matter how badly I may have wanted relationships with them, I had to come to terms with the fact it was never going to be...it still hurts like hell, but at least I am not going back for more. Am not saying that is your situation, just telling some about me.

I am not much of a talker and most of the time cannot think of anything to say anymore, but I think you are going to be okay. I think I will be too at some point....that's all for now

 

[scout86]

I just automatically go into mirror mode...reflecting back to them whatever it is they seem to expect, as best I can figure out. Social chameleon. It's an aspie thing, apparently.

It might be that, but I can see where it could also simply be self defense. If you grew up in a situation where it wasn't ok to be who you actually are, and you always felt like the only acceptable way to be was the way other people wanted you to be, it makes sense to me that figuring that out is what you'd work on. Growing up in a situation like that would also make it hard to figure out who you really are too, I guess.

honestly have no freakin' clue what it is she wants from me that I'm not giving her.

Is it at all possible that what she wants from you is someone to pick on, complain about, and criticize? I ask because that was the deal with my mother. For a long time, I thought the problem was me. But, I also figured out at an early age that the first rule of her game was "Scout is never going to be right, or ok, or good enough." So I gave up trying really early. (Probably lucky for me.) Your mother sounds very much the same way. I'd bet you could literally walk on water and she'd find a reason to criticize you. And, I think you're right, she's a version of insane. When I figured this out with my mother, I said to my T, "I think I've figured this out, she's crazy, isn't she? He said "crazy" lacked a certain specificity, but yes, he thought she was crazy. I'd be willing to be, if she was assessed by a professional she couldn't snow, you mother would get a diagnosis too.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Okay, so. If I make the assumption she doesn't always perceive reality accurately...

This is tough, because I've always believed her perception of reality is more reliable than mine. If she says I'm not a team player, that I'm not fun, that I'm handicapped, that I don't show a spirit of cooperation, that I'm holding back and not giving her my best...then all of that must be true, at least from her perspective. And therefore, I'm not "good enough". And I start to take on those labels for myself, believing that's who I am because that's how people perceive me.

But I know that I know that I know, on the inside, that I fully intend to be cooperative to the best of my ability, that I'm giving her the absolute best I have to offer, that my decisions always-always-always take the full team's well-being to heart, that even in the middle of the night when I'm dog-tired and can't think straight and desperately need sleep, I make decisions in the interest of excellence and providing my best-effort work for every task that I do, no matter how much it hurts.

And she's said that I'm a very hard worker and do good work and bulldog my way through hard things. But then she says that's not enough. That I'm still not being cooperative.

What am I missing? What cooperation could she possibly want that has nothing to do with the high-quality work I produce? And I'm not just making an empty claim of high quality. I get feedback from customers who are extremely pleased with my work. Especially the current project I'm on, the work I've been putting out has gotten stunning reviews from the people receiving it.

Is there a people-relationship-emotional something I'm missing? I'm nice to people--I'm polite, I say please and thank you, I ask questions and show interest (not as much with my mom lately, but I still do some), I give compliments and encouragement, I communicate often and in detail, I do everything my mom asks of me, without complaining, on time, and done well. I do all my work well, on time as far as it's possible (there's one project currently where that was out of my control, but the project is still moving along well). I don't dump my responsibilities on others, and in fact, my sister got angry at me a couple of weeks ago because I didn't dump one of my responsibilities on her (that totally threw me for a loop--I didn't see it coming, and had to walk out on a conversation with her because she was yelling at me for not giving her some of my work on a project she's not a part of because she was afraid I wouldn't get it done on time and somehow that would make her look bad). As far as I can see, I model everything a good team member should do.

So...if she's somehow delusional...reading things into what I say so that she's offended by things I intended to be friendly...how do I deal with that? When I try to add more detail to make sure nothing can be misconstrued, or when I try to address her inaccurate interpretations to clarify what I actually said, she perceives that as derogatory. If I leave it alone and "pick my battles", she continues to believe and assert awful things about me.

My T says I'm only 50% responsible for the outcome of this relationship. Still, everything I read online says the fault for problems in a relationship always goes both ways. So...what do I still need to work on? Where am I coming up short? What can I do to give this relationship every opportunity to succeed, without losing myself in the process?

I'm starting to think I'm going to have to tell her about my Asperger's. I haven't told her because I'm afraid she'll use it against me. But it's looking like the relationship might be over anyway. She already thinks I'm a doof. Might as well give her a documented excuse to keep believing that, since I'm sure she won't dig in to really understand what Asperger's is, and will just make more assumptions and unfounded conclusions...but at least maybe she can know I don't intend to be hurtful?

 

[Tinyflame]

Please don't tell her yet, you can always tell her another time. I feel it will fuel her 'justification', which I believe is unfounded.

What am I missing?

Abuse always makes us feel like the problem is ours- if only we weren't deficient, we could fix ourselves. 'We' are the problem:

.then all of that must be true, at least from her perspective. And therefore, I'm not "good enough". And I start to take on those labels for myself, believing that's who I am because that's how people perceive me.

Yes, that constantly eventually completely destroyed me, any feelings of rights to choose, live, be, any value at all.

:hug: to you.

 

[Ms Priss]

One of the most valuable lessons I have learned as of late...better late than never...is if I do not know what to do right now; do nothing. I got myself in some real messes by doing things I thought would make things better, but they were not well thought out. I also do not give advise because in my past I have taken the advice of some well meaning people which turned out to be disastrous...I do not blame them...it is more like I was not able to think for myself and lived much under the same impression that you are; that they know and I do not.

In a way I think you do know, and you also know what you want, but it could be that fear is blocking you...but only you can know if that is true or not.

Mom has been dead 40 yrs., but I am quite sure I can say no matter what I would never have gotten her approval or acceptance; the sad thing is I then transferred that pattern to other people and never got it there either. The person who has to give me the stamp of approval is me...am really working on that.

As far as perceptions...my older sister was always telling me how screwed up my perceptions are...well, guess what...I finally learned that it was just because they did not match hers...I no longer give her that power.

It is unfortunate that your livelihood right now kind of depends on your mother...it is like she has the power and you are doing the dance...no criticism of you cause I've done that dance enough times in my life. What would happen if you addressed this from your own sense of power in a constructive way? I think one of the most powerful ways is simply not to react. You might want to define (to yourself for right now) what you want and what you are willing to tolerate and things such as that.

I do think it is true what was stated...that with abusers it is always all you and never anything about them. Also keep in mind none of us is perfect or does life perfectly. I really like what my life coach says...everyone's primary purpose is to learn; we all have our own journeys; no two are alike.

 

[scout86]

I'm going to start by admitting it's possible that your mother & mine aren't similar. But I don't, for one second believe that's true.

Where I'm going next had nothing to do with logic. That's because some (many?) forms of mental illness have nothing to do with logic.

When I was born, I think, unknown to me, I had two options. I could have been my mother's vision of a perfect daughter who was exactly in line with her dream and made her look perfect. OR, I could be something else, which would be "bad". As luck would have it, I'm nothing like her ideal daughter and that started from the time we left the hospital.

From that point on, quite literally, I was never going to be "right". Even if that meant she had to change what she wanted in mid-stream. The point was, I HAD to be "wrong".

I'd be willing to bet the reason you can't get things "right" as far as your mother is concerned is that, by her definition, that's impossible.

I'd be willing to bet that any NORMAL person would think you were a great employee and be glad to have you. Unfortunately for you, you haven't had an opportunity to work for someone "normal".

What your mother is doing is a variation on the theme of gaslighting. I doubt she's aware of that. I don't think my mother was.

My T told me that he thought my "job" in my family of origin was "to be wrong" and to be the pragmatist, who stayed calm and rational and pissed those who craved drama off. I'm not sure what your "job" is within the family, but I'd bet it's equally complicated. The thing is, there was no room in my mom's view of reality for "Scout isn't my ideal daughter, but what she IS is ok anyway." She was a type of narcissist and the only thing that mattered was what she wanted. You were either that, or a target, or invisible.

I think you're situation is similar. If I were you, I wouldn't tell her you have Asperger's because she doesn't need any more ammunition. Your not going to get empathy from her. I doubt it's in her repertoire.

 

[grit]

I am sorry you are in a relationship with your mother and frustrated. I do not know full about your life and I skimmed through all the answers but if you are truly interested in learning why you are in this tight robe with your mother, you maybe interested in doing some research around separation - individuation theory of child development by Mahler and also research about identifying with the aggressor. The latter just means it is hard to disconnect from those (parents or caretakers) we identify with at early stages.

I think you are in a tight robe sort of relationship with your mother and it will not change, unless you make a drastic change of relating to her THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HER REACTIONS OR FEELINGS. In short, I think you are in full reaction, pleasing, understanding and not from who am I? what are my needs? etc. It is possible there is more to the story (as always ) and maybe even a real dependence going on but your therapist's validation is exactly annoying you because it is similar to your mother is doing to you.

You can kindly ask your therapist, you do not want validation. You want understanding and acknowledgement but not by the book (I call it sometimes free empathy that therapist throw out thinking clients want this). The therapist needs to see you for who you are...a very different person than what your mom sees.

 

[DogwoodTree]

you maybe interested in doing some research around separation - individuation theory of child development by Mahler and also research about identifying with the aggressor.

Yes, I've done a boat-load of research on both these topics, and it's really good stuff. I understand the theory of it, just not much about the how-to of it. What other people say works for them, doesn't make sense to me. They say things like, "You need to separate psychologically"..."you need to be yourself"..."don't worry about what she thinks"...and so on, as if that's supposed to be enough information. Apparently, I'm processing interactions at a much more granular level, and so the advice I've found in my research usually isn't particularly helpful in that I don't know how to apply it...how to use it to adjust my algorithms for interactions. I've had to figure that part out for myself.

What has helped is watching enough YouTube videos and reading enough articles that I get the picture internally of what this kind of healthier, better boundaried relationship looks like from the inside...not the outside "rules" or expression of it, but more the inside experience. It's kind of like riding a bike. You can read all kinds of instruction manuals, and get advice from everyone you know, and study the mechanics of how a bike works. But until you get on the bike and experience the process of holding your balance as the bike moves along, you don't really know how to do it. And then in the microcosm of the therapy room, I get opportunities to practice these skills in a relationship with my T. And then I can take what I learn there--the feel of it--into my relationship with my mom. More on that below...

You can kindly ask your therapist, you do not want validation. You want understanding and acknowledgement but not by the book (I call it sometimes free empathy that therapist throw out thinking clients want this). The therapist needs to see you for who you are...a very different person than what your mom sees.

Yes, I think this is where he's been going toward all along, but I couldn't see it because I had no mental framework to recognize what he was doing or put a value to it. There's another thread on here where I was replying to someone, and I asked when I would get to be my autistic self in a relationship, not just the pretend self that I thought I had to be in order to be acceptable. That was a turning point for me. As I talked about that with my T a few days later, I realized that what he's wanted all along was for me to be my autistic self with him and with others, not a "cleaned-up" version of myself that looks more neurotypical. He says over and over and over again, "You get to be you."

I also said something to him about other people's responses to me being a "thesis statement on who I am." He said that was a really important insight--that absolutely no one, not even him, should have that much power over me.

For the next several weeks, my thought patterns shifted significantly in my ability to validate for myself my autistic perception of reality as being completely legitimate, in all its autistic-ness. The thought kept running over and over in my head, like a lighthouse flashing through the fog, "My autistic perspective matters. Not just my perspective as adapted to look as neurotypical as possible. But my autistic perspective." I even got to the point a few weeks ago where I disagreed with my T on something, and I kept pressing to explain my position from my autistic perspective instead of backing off and being afraid of offending him, and then it clicked for him what I was saying, and he was stunned at the insight of it and how helpful that was for him to understand that particular point about me (we were talking about empathy and how it's relatively useless for me, and why). That feeling of disagreeing respectfully (which I had experienced before) combined with understanding that my perspective was uniquely autistic and not at all obvious to him and that this was totally okay (which I had not experienced before), was a real learning experience.

It's changed the way I show up in family therapy now, too (since I posted this thread, my mom and sister and I have started family therapy, and about 3 weeks ago, I told them about my AS dx). I'm learning to give my autistic perspective without apology...with openness to other perspectives, but without apology for having my own perspective. It's given me some leverage to ask for what I need on the team, and it's provided insight to how personally my mom and sister have taken our differences instead of being open to diversity and variation and disagreement. It remains to be seen if this will be enough to keep the team together, but I'm less attached to that outcome now, so I'm more just watching to see if they choose to keep trying to figure this out or if they choose to part ways. They've been flabbergasted when the family T or I says something like, I'm only 50% responsible for how this turns out, and I'm not at all responsible for how they each interpret the things I say or do, so long as I do them respectfully (which I do). It's like that just doesn't compute for them.

I think all along, my T has seen me very differently than my mom does. But I couldn't see myself differently than my mom did, and so I didn't understand or believe my T, even though he's clearly more trustworthy and objective than she is. But like you suggested, the real turning point wasn't believing him over her, it was recognizing for myself who I am, regardless of what she or anyone else says about me, and learning to trust my knowledge of myself. I still have a ton of individuating to go, and I still fall into that emotional flashback trap of thinking horrible things about myself because of something she (or someone else) says about me. But it doesn't happen as often or last as long. I'm learning to see her as a fallible human being, whose perspective is just as limited as anyone else's. And that's okay. It means she doesn't have to be perfect or prophetically insightful or whatever...and neither do I.

And ironically, not needing validation from someone else in order to better know myself on the inside, makes me more open to feedback (both positive and negative) from trustworthy people (and more able to identify who's trustworthy and who isn't), in the sense that it's useful information. It's helped me become more teachable (like in my karate classes), and more able to receive a compliment with appreciation (even if it's not a "connecting" experience on an emotional level). It's like I'm becoming a person instead of an empty shell waiting for someone else to tell me who I am to them.