Ptsd from narcissistic abuse

[lostforgottensoul]

Nobody can diagnose a person with this little information they write here, so it's not ok to do that.

No one in this thread is diagnosing or not diagnosing. We are advising of PTSD criteria in the DSM & ICD. Not one person here has the abilty to make a diagnosis. We can suggest and advise of criteria.

Even if they didn't have "real" PTSD, they are here for support for their pain. At some point they do understand that perhaps this PTSD wasn't theirs after all and they go on. This was actually what I wanted to say. Peer support is very important, so it's also important that everyone's experience and perception of their experience would be respected, even if you had some concerns about it.

"Real" PTSD? Oh my!

In the end this is a PTSD peer support site. If the person has a different diagnosis then they could possibly be better served at a site to support that diagnosis. They exist.

 

[anthony]

is that the first criteria of PTSD includes also if your close family member was in some kind of life threatening situation and you weren't there (or if your work includes looking at crimescenes with bodies etc.). So it does not need for you to personally experience it.

No and Yes. You don't need to have been there, however, lets not just try and summate the actual criterion you're using to justify this to some simply, once again broad, application. It is actually far more specific than you mention:

1. Learning that the traumatic event(s) occurred to a close family member or close friend. In cases of actual or threatened death of a family member or friend, the event(s) must have been violent and accidental.

Lets not leave out the bold and just leave it to people to loosely apply PTSD once again for third party incidents. Must be close family or friend, and in cases of actual or threatened death, MUST be violent and accidental, i.e. horrific car crash.

 

[mumstheword]

It is a grey area and a fine line sometimes, perhaps. My 20 yr abusive relationship, after an already horrific childhood, rape, assault, threats with weapons as a very young child and later as a pre-adolescent, seemed almost more damaging than the earlier abuses, as did my relationship with a histrionic abusive mother.
In both relationships, I was rarely hit, but the psychological abuse, gaslighting, neglect and mental torture caused me to want to end it all and by the end of the 20 abuse relationship (many children later) I was extremely physically ill from the chronic stress and sleep deprivation and being blocked from accessing medical help. So yeah, I think in some instances, psychological abuse can cause very real "feel like you're dying", leading to PTSD symptoms and panic attacks or even cause life-threatening states of unwellness from the extreme stress of it.

 

[Deleted member 541]

after an already horrific childhood, rape, assault, threats with weapons as a very young child and later as a pre-adolescent

This is what most likely caused your PTSD, the psychological abuse that you suffered probably brought on delayed onset PTSD. I lived in an abusive home as a child. I was beaten, emotionally, mentally and physically, raped and molested. Then gang raped as a teen. I had symptoms of PTSD through out the years, such as anxiety, flashbacks and panic attacks. But it wasn’t until I was triggered in my early 40’s that everything came to a head and I was a PTSD mess. Until then I functioned pretty well.

Emotional abuse, gaslighting and psychological abuse doesn’t cause PTSD.

 

[mumstheword]

This is what most likely caused your PTSD, the psychological abuse that you suffered probably brought on...

Yes, I already got PTSD from childhood sexual abuse and dv so I'm not in the best position to advocate for psychological abuse as causative of ptsd. I was just empathizing as I know how bad it can get.

 

[Scarlet13]

So, I would agree that emotional abuse can be some of the worse abuse because it effects who you are, it is so insidious. It is why I have the "complex" in my CPTSD.
But my actual experiences with death, threats of death, and a mom who did nothing lead to the PTSD. And then everything is just all blended together, so I don't know.
I still do not understand then why non violent sexual abuse can cause PTSD?
I got PTSD early on from this as well as being blamed for the sexual abuse. So, I don't know why sexual abuse/sexual assault can cause PTSD along with threats of death/experiencing death causing PTSD. I guess it is that these experiences "overwhelm the brain." And this leads to PTSD.
But, insidious emotional abuse can overwhelm the brain. It can make you feel like you are not even real, alive. This is hard to speak to because a lot of my emotional abuse was constant threats to my life and my mom not doing anything. So, that when I got all of the verbal abuse, that felt like a threat to my life too. I would sometimes hear, "I just want to break your neck and watch you bleed to death." And then I would here in the next breath, "You are just so stupid, no wonder you have no friends." (not true).
And honestly both comments felt life threatening to me. It was just being around this caustic person all the time. I had to survive, so now that I am not there, I am still in the survival state.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future, verbal abuse gets added as a cause for PTSD.
It just does not make sense to me that if a person got nothing but verbal abuse in their home that they would end up with GAD. The verbal abuse caused a form of trauma, and this form of "trauma" is not included in the DSM. Does that even make sense?
It is honestly MORE hurtful for a T to give a BS or vague diagnosis like GAD or dysthymia then to just say "trauma" and actually acknowledge the trauma. I don't know. And honestly it depends on the patient.
It could make sense for a person to say,
"I suffered verbal abuse and now I have GAD."
Or that GAD diagnosis could feel invalidating of the trauma.

 

[Sideways]

@Scarlet13 - there’s so much misinformation in that last post.

But you seem to have first hand experience of what it’s like to have someone suggest that what you’ve been through isn’t really valid suffering.

So, hows about you stop doing that to others. You’ve managed to invalidate the suffering of people diagnosed with clinical anxiety and “non-violent” rape (wha????) in a single post.

 

[Scarlet13]

No, I did not mean it in an invalidating way. I am actually just thinking about non violent sexual abuse and how it does overwhelm the brain. This was my experience at age 4.
I am actually not invalidating this, it does cause PTSD and I am wondering how that can work out of curiosity (as it did happen to me) and not to ask how it can happen in an invalidating way. I am not saying it does not cause PTSD, but just wondering how it does out of interest.
I believe that all mental health disorders can cause suffering. I have lived getting general diagnosis when in reality my issues are caused by trauma (also probably I have anxious genes!)
I am sorry if I was not clear in articulating this better.

 

[Scarlet13]

So, I had to come back into this thread. It was just bothering me. I would like to clarify some more what I was trying to say in my above comment. I was misunderstood, and after rereading that comment I can see why. I was trying to make a very specific point that I can clearly see may have sounded bad.

It is a trigger of mine to be misunderstood. I know this and normally, I would let it go, but I feel the need to stress again how I would never invalidate rape as a cause for PTSD, nor would I invalidate non PTSD mental suffering.

The point I was making was that there are traumas that do not involve near death and threats of death, but still cause PTSD. I was trying to figure out (in a philosophical, curious way) why traumas that do not involve actual threats to your life cause PTSD.

I was literally wondering about my own sexual abuse trauma that very clearly caused me PTSD symptoms at age 5.
My abusers were often "gentle" and "loving" and not "violent". My life was not threatened, but I was bribed, controlled and forced, but never threatened actual death.

My point is that PTSD can happen when events are so terrible that the brain becomes overwhelmed, and cannot cope. It does not have to involve death or threats of death for something to be so terrible to overwhelm the brain as what happens with SA.

So, I feel that emotional abuse, relational abuse can be so terrible that the brain can be overwhelmed and not cope and then develop PTSD, from years of put downs, gas lighting, and manipulation. I was never loved by my own mother. Her disgust for me has easily completely overwhelmed by brain's ability to cope. This trauma in many ways is worse than my SA and absolutely causes a large part of my PTSD.

I believe that emotional abuse does cause PTSD and it is a shame that it is not specifically cited in the DSM. Official medical text in the past has been biased and full of holes. It is progressing. But this post in particular bothered me because the OP, instead of getting support, got told she could never have PTSD from emotional abuse.
When I called other non PTSD conditions BS, I was referring to what often happens when your trauma is not seen or recognized, you get a bunch of diagnoses that don't really match up.

This forum has been amazing to me and I am grateful for the insights that I have gotten.
But, most likely due to my emotional abuse, it is very hard to be misunderstood, especially about something so important.

 

[mumstheword]

So, I had to come back into this thread. It was just bothering me. I would like to clarify some more...

I totally get where you're coming from. My main abusers rarely hit me but the emotional abuse, manipulation, turning other people I loved against me with lies and slander (or trying to ) withholding of love, dishonesty, character smearing and assasination within my family and community, gaslighting, rejection, terrible neglect (especially after trauma, often caused by them, and when I was really ill or during and after childbirth) was really very causative in the development of PTSD. This was only after years and years of constant tearing-down and nastiness though.

The fact that they can be so callous and vindictive is, in itself, traumatizing. But I would also add, that the first one, my mother, did also physically assault me,and expose me to a lot of violence and sex-related stress and other abusers and the second one sexually abused me, as I was in a sexual relationship with him and he was very abusive and narcissistic. He also drugged me to control me, which was often terrifying and debilitating.

So it remains a grey area for me. I can't judge it because of the extreme and on-going life-threatening abuse and neglect from early childhood, which does fit the PTSD criteria, but the fact remains, those people hurt me more than the rapists, child-f*ckers, and people who physically threatened my life and assaulted me and other near death experiences.

 

[Scarlet13]

I agree with you. It seems like a lot of abuse is not just only one type of abuse. I don't know what I would have without the physical and sexual abuse. Would I have PTSD from emotional abuse only? I don't know.
But I do know my emotional is some of the worst, most insidious abuse. It undermines my humanity. As far as trauma goes, it is some of the worst abuse out of all my abuse, yet I will minimize it. My T says it is like thousands of paper cuts all adding together.
It is a gray area. But I believe emotional abuse can be bad enough to cause PTSD. It is just not reflected in the medical text.

 

[mumstheword]

I'm wondering about people who get damaged from cults. I'm sure nobody could invalidate the psychological damage induced from being a cult member and then having to get out.
But then sexual abuse is often part and parcel of cult life.

I narrowly escaped being the victim of a cult leader pedophile. My mum had us living in a "Ashram" when I was seven. I wanted her to leave me there, when, after 3 months she wanted to leave. But she didn't want to (I ended up thinking the only reason she wanted me was for the single parent pension and child support) turns out the "head Swami" was sexually abusing girls when they hit puberty.

I was actually happier there than I was for just about all of my childhood because my mum was too ill to abuse me, and I got to run around with a mob of kids, even though I was regularly bullied and assaulted by one of the older boys there.
I did nearly drown there though. Anyway I digress, I hadn't actually wanted to Bellmore of my story, this is the point I wanted to get too ...

I don't see how the acute stress of psychological abuse can't cause physical damage and (perceived or actual) threat to life.

Who's to say how the body responds to emotional abuse from someone close to you, i.e. someone you are sexual with?

How is finding out the person you've given your body to, thinking they cared about you, and then finding out they have zero regard for you, that different to rape?

I'm asking from the bodies point of view, because PTSD is a very physical illness, even though it's classified as a "mental illness".

The body has registered severe threat to it's continuity, and thus responds with various "protective" mechanisms, in an extreme way.

Manipulate sexual relationships are sex by deceit. Perhaps some people feel utterly violated, akin to being raped, by these kinds of relational experiences?

Just speculating, in case anyone feels up in arms about the suggestion, so please don't get too reactive (sorry I just realized who I was addressing, we can't help being a reactive lot, so feel free to disregard that) .

I am a curious scientifically rigorous free thinker type, so I like to question things.

But perhaps the sense of betrayal and violation, caused in emotionally and psychologically abusive sexual relationships can cause similar reactions to post-rape trauma.
Just speculating, in hope of further inquiry and development to the body of trauma-informed knowledge here.

Personally, from my own research, I don't consider the latest DSM manual, or any diagnostic manual, a set-in-stone, cannot-be-evolved-or-further-developed-when-more-knowledge-and-data-comes-in gospel of diagnosis.

These bodies of psychological understanding are always evolving as brilliant minds and experienced practitioners collaborate with suffering people and other vested.interests.

The other point I wanted to mention, is that there are a number of other diagnostic labels being brought into the diagnostic and psychology arena that describe similar stress disorders that may or may not fit.

There is Acute Stress Disorder, something I suffered from when I had to leave my children. It's customarily a stress disorder that occurs when a primary relationship is completely broken in a traumatic way. It's so stressful it can make you feel like you are dying. I have a book on it, I could dig out and name, if anyone is interested.
It's not a permanent condition though.

There is Ongoing Traumatic Relationship Disorder. The name is pretty explanatory.

And then there is Post Traumatic Relationship Disorder.

I'm not sure if any of these are accredited DSM diagnoses, but they are real enough to have been.developed by caring and experienced psychologists and therapists in response to patterns in presenting suffering patients and often, their own experiences on top of that.

A label is only as good as the fit and the informed support that such a label can elicit.