Ptsd from narcissistic abuse

[Sideways]

Too many people are claiming PTSD these days, which just serves to water down the real diagnosis and give some people some weird excuse

What I personally dislike about everyone being given the ptsd label in order to somehow validate their suffering, is the stigma it generates about other forms of mental illness. Like, it’s as though saying someone “doesn’t have ptsd from that because there’s no Crit A trauma” is basically saying “Meh, they aren’t really suffering then”.

Ptsd isn’t the only mental illness that a person can develop from trauma. And if a person develops depression, or an anxiety condition, or an adjustment disorder as a result of trauma? They’re all very real. The struggles that person is going through are real.

From my reading (and I could easily be wrong), actual threats to a person’s life create changes in the brain. There is no doubt in my mind that perceived threats can also create change in the brain, and very definitely create mental illness. But, so far, the science seems to indicate that the changes going on are different. Not better or worse or more or less severe, just different.

Criteria A, as far as I understand it, isn’t trying to say “there’s no trauma unless...”, but simply “This type of trauma creates this type of change...”

So, if someone has been in an emotionally abusive relationship with actual violence or actual threats to their life, that creates ptsd changes. If the threats or violence were perceived, then that could well cause mental illness. It doesn’t need to be ptsd to be valid as an illness, valid as trauma, or valid as suffering. It’s just different.

When people rush in to say “emotional abuse is traumatic”, hell yes I agree with that.

But to then insist that perceived threats causing mental disturbances must therefore be ptsd? Invalidates other forms of mental illness as something only for people who haven’t suffered ‘real trauma’. Which is garbage. If perceived threats have created a mental illness, it’s not invalidating that person’s suffering to seek out a correct, other-than-ptsd diagnosis.

But to say “That was traumatic and you’re suffering so it must be ptsd”? IMO, invalidates people who “only” get diagnosed with something else. Those “other” mental illnesses are just as real as ptsd. So let’s get correct diagnoses and not insist that it’s ptsd or bust.

 

[Friday]

I wish I could like that x1000 @Ragdoll Circus

People seem to forget sometimes, that PTSD isn't a pain scale.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

So let’s get correct diagnoses and not insist that it’s ptsd or bust.

^^^^^^ YES THAT!

 

[hodge]

Me, too, Friday.

 

[WishfulThinking123]

Frankly- I think that people don't know how to react or even believe me when I say I have PTSD because...it is given out loosely I think...however, I had late onset PTSD- so for about 3 years....did I ever feel sad and sometimes angry about my X-husband sure, did I ever cry, feel crappy- have low self esteem sure....but then the PTSD developed after beginning journaling and I truly feel my brain has chemically changed. I believe that emotional abuse can "compound" PTSD and kind of pile up but, what caused my PTSD is the numerous sexual assults that have occurred to me. The way I have been affected by the emotional abuse is COMPLETELY different....once the PTSD doors have been opened I don't think they can ever be completely closed again, with the disassociation, anxiety, fear, depression- it is really different. I don't know if I am making sense but, I know first hand that emotional abuse can be TRAUMATIC and I don't think anyone on this site would disagree however... I don't think it can cause PTSD, my PTSD systems were brought on by something that caused a lot of helplessness/fear. It's like a switch that's been turned on and triggered. I hope I made sense!

 

[hodge]

You made sense, @WishfulThinking123. I am with you.

 

[Scarlet13]

So, I am having a hard time understanding then, how non violent sexual abuse can cause similar changes in the brain like actual threats of death?
I was raped and forced to perform oral sex at age 4 by two women who were being "loving". There was coercion, bribery and threats that I would get into trouble.
Yet, I know this caused (non diagnosed) PTSD at age 5. I know sexual abuse is included in the DSM, but it feels like an add on, like the symptom list is still reflecting war victims.
This is perhaps why CPTSD has become a thing.
I honestly do not know where I stand on this debate. Some of my most pronounced, specificly PTSD symptoms come from emotional abuse from my mother who never actually threatened me. She just never kept me safe. She let others hurt me, threaten me, almost kill me. So, those acts fit, but my mother? Who just did not do anything? Who told me all the time how terrible I was? I actually perceived her verbal abuse and invalidation as threatening because if you have a mother who rejects you then you are at major risk of not surviving and your brain knows this at a primitive level.
I have many "legit" causes for PTSD (being almost choked to death and then repeatedly threatened) but my emotional trauma also feels like it has caused PTSD. And maybe this is because of the physical events that have combined.

I guess maybe a compromise could be getting a diagnosis of trauma. I would feel invalidated if I got a diagnosis of GAD if a bunch of shit happened to me to actually cause the anxiety.
A PTSD diagnosis seems to shift the blame. Other diagnosis like depressive disorder and GAD place the blame right on you and your "faulty genes" when you know you were f*cked up by toxic relationships.
Before my CPTSD diagnosis, I was diagnosed with a plethora of bs things that didn't even make sense like dysymia, Bipolar disorder that only comes out with meds, adjustment disorder when pregnant, GAD, kinda BPD, and just "trauma."
Thank God for my CPTSD diagnosis. There will always be gray area in mental health diagnosis. Psychologists know this. This does not have to be problematic, but it can be.
It can also be problematic when the text is too rigidly adhered to. Remember, highly respected text written by "experts" referred to troubled women as having "hysteria."
So the current text is not accurate and will continue to evolve and be updated as society evolves and more research is done. But people have symptoms now, they cannot wait until the day when the text reflects them. They need help now and I think this is what the therapist in this thread is trying to refer. Maybe it does not have to be specifically refered to as PTSD, maybe trauma or maybe Anxiety NOS (non otherwise specified) for insurance.
It all gets a little ridiculous.
I think people came down on the original OP as not having PTSD because she was not actually threatened.
I think there is some truth to that and PTSD is too commonly tossed around. "I have PTSD because my boyfriend cheated." No you don't.
That is why I suggested to the OP maybe there was trauma in her child hood worth looking at.

 

[Sideways]

I would feel invalidated if I got a diagnosis of GAD if a bunch of shit happened to me to actually cause the anxiety.

To me, that’s far more about stigma associated with GAD than it is about what is medically wrong with the person. It’s not the place of the DSM to say what does or doesn’t qualify as a nasty experience. Your diagnosis is simply there to identify what’s medically going on for the person.

Should people who have been through a traumatic situation, and suffer a mental illness as a consequence, be entitled to have “but someone else caused it” stamped on whatever diagnosis they are ultimately given? Is that what medical diagnosis is for? No.

Do people with GAD from trauma have more valid suffering than people with GAD from something else? Is a person’s suffering more justified, or more entitled to understanding and empathy if it’s caused by trauma? That’s stigma.

Assuming a person with “just GAD” hasn’t been through life-threatening trauma, or ‘real trauma’ if they don’t also have ptsd? That’s stigma.

Your T is there to help you with validation, your diagnosis is there to help you understand what is medically wrong.

ETA In real life, it is the reality that you may get more understanding from the general population if you have ptsd, then if you were to say (for example) I have GAD. There are a lot of assumptions that are made based on a person’s diagnosis. IMO, it isn’t helpful to add to that stigma by giving everyone who’s been through trauma the ptsd label. That feeds stigma and misinformation about mental illness.

IMO Ts who label someone with ptsd as a way to validate their suffering, are doing more harm than good.

 

[Scarlet13]

To me, that’s far more about stigma associated with GAD than it is about what is medically wro...

So, I was just referring to how it can feel to be given a diagnosis like GAD and then having it inferred that you just have anxious genes when there is really external events that are causing the anxiety. This can feel really bad and be counter productive. Also, the therapy may not fit. Non trauma aware T's who treat anxiety and panic as a phobia may do harm and not help a patient whose anxiety is there because of events. So, I think that many T's will say a person has "Trauma" and anxiety from trauma, but maybe not PTSD.
As far as stigma its there for really every diagnosis.
I have heard more people in my life admit more to having "anxiety" than really any other diagnosis, but they all carry a stigma in various directions and they all cause suffering
I think the bottom line is really being able to claim trauma and trauma effects so you can work with a trauma informed expert, get validation for the cause, and effective therapy. There is a big difference between anxiety from trauma and anxiety just because of your genes/brain. So I agree with both sides. You can have suffered trauma and have disabling trauma symptoms, but actually not have PTSD. I have had one psychiatrist give me a PTSD diagnosis in college because I was so jittery and also my history. I had another psychiatrist give me a "trauma" diagnosis and said I do not have PTSD because I am too in touch with my feelings.
The thing that fits me best is CPTSD, but I was totally ok with just having "trauma" there for a while. I also have ADHD (such a great combo) and so I totally have symptoms that come from brain glitches and not anything external. These ADHD symptoms can be totally disabling in certain situations.

Sometimes I wish I was just the "anxious" person with a supportive family and I could just remark, "My whole family is anxious. Were all a little quirky."
This is from a real conversation. I just laughed and said, "Oh yeah, I am anxious too."
I kept quiet about my PTSD, alcoholic father, controlling mother, and psycho step dad.
Abuse and other trauma is almost more stigmatizing.

 

[EveHarrington]

So, I am having a hard time understanding then, how non violent sexual abuse can cause similar change...

IMHO bipolar disorder that only comes out with drugs is the biggest bullshit ever. What is this?!? Why do doctors want to give you labels and say you're f*cked up and need MORE meds only when you're messed up because of the meds in the first place. It really makes no sense!

 

[ano]

Great conversation, I came back to read a bit, and something that is missing here, is that the first criteria of PTSD includes also if your close family member was in some kind of life threatening situation and you weren't there (or if your work includes looking at crimescenes with bodies etc.). So it does not need for you to personally experience it. Human mind is a fascinating thing, you can really experience something just by thinking about it. It can be a very real experience (like how I explained the emotinal abuse situation - that was actually subconscious). And the diagnosis is made according to the perceived trauma, not according to the situation happened per se. Everyone processes things differently, what matters is how this one person experienced it themselves (not what other people have experienced or have not experienced).

I agree with people who say that patients need help now, not after the knowledge has improved enough so that it's written somewhere. PTSD is a specific type of symptoms (avoidance, reliving, hypervigilance). Many traumasurvivors have that kind of symptoms, and it's crucial to distinguish them from general anxiety or depression because they are different. Just if someone says that PTSD can't be developed from a certain type of trauma, doesn't mean that these people wouldn't really have PTSD symptoms and need treatment according to them (not a treatment for general anxiety or depression). Everyone gets some kind of label, and that's for it's own purposes, but the treatment is a different thing.

I'll hope that people would welcome others to the forum and not suffocate them in the first hand with claims that they don't have PTSD. Nobody can diagnose a person with this little information they write here, so it's not ok to do that. You can't say that they have it, and you can't say that they don't have it. Even if they didn't have "real" PTSD, they are here for support for their pain. At some point they do understand that perhaps this PTSD wasn't theirs after all and they go on. This was actually what I wanted to say. Peer support is very important, so it's also important that everyone's experience and perception of their experience would be respected, even if you had some concerns about it. So hopefully this will be my last post, I think I said everything I wanted to say. :)

 

[anonymous]

I agree with people who say that patients need help now, not after the knowledge has improved enough so that it's written somewhere.

Guy walks into a hospital with a headache, nausea, vomiting, fever, dihorrea and wet cough.
Doctor takes a quick look at him, says "it's a flu. Obvious symptoms, antibiotics will be ineffective. Go home take a paracetamol and plenty of fluids."

3 days later. Same guy shows up in hospital again. This time he's in the morgue. Different doctor does an autopsy, lab results state that the guy died of Amoebic Dysentery.

Oops.

First doctor probably shouldn't have assumed he knew what was wrong the guy based on a few symptoms.
Had he bothered to investigate the cause of the malady instead of jumping to the conclusion that what works for one disease, should work for this guy too because he has the same symptoms.

PTSD symptoms and need treatment according to them (not a treatment for general anxiety or depression).

What symptoms that are exclusive to PTSD are you referring to?

Even if they didn't have "real" PTSD, they are here for support for their pain.

That's all well and good, but then what?
After a shared tear and an E-hug, what should they do about getting themselves better?

Besides, this is a site which focuses specifically on one disorder. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
Not Bi-polar, depression, GAD, schizophrenia, dementia, poliomyelitis, myocardial Infarction or stubbed toes.
Nor are we a special secret club. There's no answer to a mystery of the universe to be found here. Just a bunch of people with or supporting someone with PTSD, trying to manage their PTSD. Making the best of what their lives have become, or have always been.