(clearing my own head but don't mind input) brother thinks his opinion is the only true one, upset

[Sideways]

It can he really difficult to have such opposing views on something with a person we care about. But actually, it is okay that you and your broher hold different beliefs about what marriage is about. People have different opinions about stuff, and sometimes those opinions can be offensive, but that doesn’t need to define the relationship you have with that person.

Except that here - it sounds like you’re kind of worried about your brother and his current partner. It’s good that you’re worried about him, but if he wants to do this marriage thing his way, and for his reasons, you’re gonna have to let him. Even if it means it turns into a complete disaster down the track.

And then there’s the issue about how this impacts his opinion of you...because this issue is a big deal for you, and maybe one of the things that concerns you is, if your brother has this opinion about marriage, how does he feel about you and your identity and preferences? Does this mean he doesn’t really accept who you are? Probably not, but it would make sense to me if that was playing on your mind and perhaps adding to the emotional significance of this particular argument...

 

[littleoc]

Except that here - it sounds like you’re kind of worried about your brother and his current partner. It’s good that you’re worried about him, but if he wants to do this marriage thing his way, and for his reasons, you’re gonna have to let him. Even if it means it turns into a complete disaster down the track.

I am. And I'm scared he'll accidentally hurt his future kids, or the girlfriend he has will (what if she's allowing him to rush it because she's maybe not the greatest person?).

I'm also a little scared he'll cut me off. Not let me see his kids. Or end up getting only partial custody. Or end up totally miserable in a marriage he thinks he isn't allowed to leave. Which is a cultural thing elsewhere so he COULD find support I'm sure... From like-minded individuals.

Also, I'm worried about my own, future kids. Being told that their family is wrong by their uncle, aunt, or cousins... It would be hard to explain, and I wouldn't want to have to deal with that.

I asked my gay friend who is Menanite (obviously in the closet until he is very independent) about the "wrong family" thing this morning and he told me that I can explain beliefs to my kids and that their cousins are clearly wrong.

But, you know. I would do that for my future kids that I can't have right now. (Although browsing teenagers for adoption is a current hobby -- though I will only adopt a teenager when they are younger than my other kids, to prevent bad situations. Not that I don't trust teenager.. :P) I wouldn't want them to think that their upbringing is wrong.

Lots of PTSD sufferers already know what that's like.

 

[Ronin]

And I'm scared he'll accidentally hurt his future kids, or the girlfriend he has will (what if she's allowing him to rush it because she's maybe not the greatest person?).

Time. :)

Everyone involved will be different, by then. There is no way for anyone to know now how things will evolve from here.

In my experience, people even in very closed religions tend to recognize abuse, and relations people are plain unhappy about. Even if a majority tries to keep a person in, concerned souls saying Hell no, get the hell out, happen.

The kids you raise, are your own. You are still the person they will run compare that toxic nonsense with. Not ideal atmospheres can be overcome; it is not just those views they would be with, it is you, and others like minded as you.

You are discussing and contemplating futures, now, but if they ever come to existence and in what form is unknowable by this point.

 

[littleoc]

In my experience, people even in very closed religions tend to recognize abuse, and relations people are plain unhappy about. Even if a majority tries to keep a person in, concerned souls saying Hell no, get the hell out, happen.

That's true. And my twin knows what it feels like to be abused by a parent. He wouldn't want that to happen to his children. He already loves our nephew greatly.

The kids you raise, are your own. You are still the person they will run compare that toxic nonsense with. Not ideal atmospheres can be overcome; it is not just those views they would be with, it is you, and others like minded as you.

True.

I think I was thinking of something else -- my aunt N advertising on TV in the 80s and 90s that she was gay and wanted to force our community to deal with it, but she was hateful and acted like straight people were the real abomination. Her kids were in school and started getting horribly bullied. All blame has gone to my aunt, and I pretty much agree -- she didn't care about their wellbeing at all. She was clearly getting attention (long story -- I promise she's awful, I've met her). I'm worried of being like that, of selfishly hurting my kids by my choices. So -- a much deeper issue than my twin brother. Something I suppose I should think on and come to terms with somehow.

You are discussing and contemplating futures, now, but if they ever come to existence and in what form is unknowable by this point.

Great point. I'll refrain from making future assumptions :)

 

[littleoc]

Update for curious parties:

I talked to my brother and told him not to interrupt or talk over me. He said, "I'm sorry," and then "I sowwy" in his de-escalation voice (the kind he uses to prevent fights or over-seriousness that feels threatening). I mentioned he's autistic (very high functioning!) so this wasn't a sarcastic or mocking gesture, it was a friendly one in which he wanted to make sure I wasn't forgiving him.

So, I suppose I should just be sure to remind him occasionally not to accidentally trigger me, and meanwhile I will continue to respect husband personal views.

He did a much better job today and yesterday. We talked briefly about abortion, and we talked about a gay bar in Nashville. When I brought up the gay bar, he simply stood up and left. This is much better than talking over me or interrupting me.

So, I'd say, for now the problem is solved :)

Thank you for the support and advice. :)

 

[littleoc]

*make sure I was forgiving him


Autocorrect. :)

 

[Swift]

Hey. Thanks for the update! I'm glad it went better than it did last time.

 

[littleoc]

Hey. Thanks for the update! I'm glad it went better than it did last time.

Me, too :)

 

[Deleted member 46276]

I want a supportive brother. Not one who is telling me what to think and believe. I don't subscribe to...

From a conservative perspective, there is lots of evidence that people who are attracted to children or animals (zoophiles) or inanimate objects (people have "married" Statue of Liberty, etc) can't change their sexual orientation any more than gays can. So there is logic to keeping marriage between a man and a woman of legal age or, alternatively, allowing every one to do whatever they want.

But also people need support and acceptance and not blame and accusations, especially from loved ones who disagree.

It's legitimately difficult to weigh personal ideas about how the world should function and importance of support and acceptance and sort if unconditional love of family members that is actually necessary for people to feel safe and secure.

 

[Swift]

Hey, @Endofwar.
Before I debate the point let me say I respect your beliefs.
Secondly, do you have any research about how easy it is for straight people to change their orientation? It would be a better point of comparison to compare consenting adults to consenting adults, rather than people with affections for things that can't consent. Also, attraction and love aren't the same thing. Apples to apples, mate.
A dog or a bridge also can't sign a legal contract.

 

[Freida]

I'm so happy you found a way that you both found a way that works!! That's fabulous!

 

[Deleted member 46276]

Hey, @Endofwar.
Before I debate the point let me say I respect your beliefs.
Secondly...

Everything is nature and nurture, the only real question is how much is nature and how much is nurture. Ancient Greek thebian elite forces was made up entirely of male couples, spartan military was older and younger males who were supposed to be bonded in their affections. Etc. These societal things developed over 100s of years, so there is no way to estimate what might happen by the year 2400 in the us military.

On the hand, there are clearly people who are just going to be a certain way almost no matter what.

I think both liberals and conservatives are probably right, but they are looking at different things. Like liberals are right that there are people who are going to be gay no matter what and conservatives are right that nurture and societal messages does affect people.

You are right about non humans not being able to sign contracts, but there are videos of otherwise fairly well adjusted people wanting to be in things like a open lesbian marriage with the Eiffel Tower on YouTube. And it seems wrong to somehow tell them they have a disorder and some other person who also can't change is treated differently