Gaslighting vs transference vs over-reactivity vs ???

[DogwoodTree]

So apparently the way to get my mom to want me to stay on the team...is to agree to separate and propose terms of separation. Last week, I offered them terms of separation, using their proposal as the starting point and simply adding more detail to cover some more areas that could be points of conflict. This week, my mom started the session saying she couldn't just let me go without trying to work out some more of the "misunderstandings", and then she ended the session leaning towards staying together. And I just had a conversation with her today where she said that if it's possible to work out some of the differences, she prefers to stay together.

Do you think she changed her mind for rational reasons, or is this the classic "I hate you, don't leave me" conundrum?

Some of the things she said today that were still issues...I have no idea how she thought I was asking for those things in the contracts we were trying to work out before so we could stay together. It's like she didn't even read them, or my attorney's comments about the changes he proposed, or my explanations of those proposed changes. She apparently thought I was asking for something completely different, even completely different numbers than what are written on the papers. And she didn't seem to know anything about the potential problems in her original versions of the contracts...problems and gaps and loopholes my attorney was trying to clean up that would protect both her and me (and my sister, if they make the same edits in her contract)...and that my attorney gave very reasoned explanations for why they could be problems and why the edits were necessary.

It's weird. Both times I've talked with her about it this week (and once last week when she called me to talk about it after last week's session), so long as I don't take a position either way in the conversation, she ends up arguing with herself for both sides, and then asking me to propose solutions to the problems she's having with staying together, but without really fully identifying and clarifying exactly what those problems are. I sit there and watch her spin her wheels, and when she asks me to solve it, I tell her I don't have a magic solution. Today, she dropped her head into her hands and kept sighing and rubbing her eyes...I think she was about to start crying. I get that it's a stressful decision for her, but I can't fix it for her. And I keep repeating my T's words in my head, that her emotions are her responsibility, not mine. I have to be careful not to jump into my old programming where I try to soothe her and then start coming up with ways to make the problem easier for her. I told my T the other day that I realized I had given several concessions already in an effort to make her feel better, without insisting on a quid pro quo, and I said that I realized I needed to stop doing that.

 

[scout86]

Do you think she changed her mind for rational reasons, or is this the classic "I hate you, don't leave me" conundrum?

No, not for rational reasons. Quite possibly for something like part 2, but I'm not exactly sure she hates you either..

I have to be careful not to jump into my old programming where I try to soothe her and then start coming up with ways to make the problem easier for her.

You've really come a long way with this. You may not manage it perfectly this time, but I'll bet you do the best you've done so far.

You're into the kind of thing where I never COULD figure out what was going on. So I'm wishing you a ton of luck. I decided I couldn't manage it, it wasn't worth the trouble in my case, so I just quite trying make things work. You've got more at stake, from a job standpoint, so it might be worth the effort. But don't expect any part of it to be rational. It will make sense, in her version of reality, but quite possibly in no other way.

 

[DogwoodTree]

but I'm not exactly sure she hates you either

Yeah, I don't think she hates me in the plain sense of that term, but I do think she wants me to be someone I'm not, essentially rejecting the person I really am and trying to force me to be something else...although I think she's now working on that some. In family therapy, I think she's starting to see that she's taken a lot of our differences as personal affronts, thinking I was rejecting her or hating her (her words), when I was just honestly trying to be authentic and kind with her, in ways that come from my real self instead of trying to "perform" for her. Even my sister has said a couple of things that seem to indicate she can allow for the fact that I experience the world and relationships very differently than she does. I haven't seen evidence yet that either of them can really accept that and work with it, but that might be a limitation of their own neurology/neuroticism/personalities, and not a conscious decision at all. And I'm seeing some pretty big red flags with my sister that weren't so clear before. I'm starting to wonder if it's not my sister who dominates the relationship between her and my mom instead of the other way around, and a lot of my mom's behavior has been an unconscious dance to not trigger my sister's emotional reactivity.

At any rate, my T thought it was very odd how quickly my mom switched positions on this issue, going from desperately trying to get rid of me, to looking intently for ways to work things out. He said it's a common pattern with us, that she shifts from one position to another to another, even within the same conversation. And I've been trained all my life to just shift right along with her. She jumps from one rationale to another, and acts as if everything she just said didn't even happen. And I jump with her, not even realizing that I let her drop her earlier arguments as she makes contradictory arguments, and I automatically either agree with her on everything (yes-man) or I'm her "devil's advocate" for whatever her new position is. I realize I can't even use one of her own statements from earlier in a conversation to argue a point, because she doesn't seem to remember that she said it, and so therefore, it's not valid to her and is offensive for me to say she said something that she has no recollection of.

You may not manage it perfectly this time, but I'll bet you do the best you've done so far.

I feel guilty, just sitting there as she's emotional and upset. She makes subtle pokes that make me look like I've wronged her, or that I don't care about her problems. They're subtle enough that I can't call her out on it, but clear enough that I have to stay guarded inside to keep from feeling guilty about it all and taking on the responsibility to give in and try to fix it for her.

But yes, I think I've reached a point on this issue that I feel like I'll likely be okay whichever way it goes, and so I can think more calmly and clearly when I'm around her.

But don't expect any part of it to be rational. It will make sense, in her version of reality, but quite possibly in no other way.

I grew up in her logic system...her paradigm for reality...and built a lot of my algorithms and understanding of how the world works based on her version of reality. I find I can too easily still drop into that logic system, and so then I see the internal consistency of how she rationalizes her position. But it doesn't jive with reality. So I have to consciously make an effort to not get caught in that paradigm when I'm around her, so that I can see things differently and more healthily. This makes empathy for her very difficult, because any movement on my part towards empathizing with her drops me into that logic system, and it's very, very difficult to think for myself at that point.

Thanks for all your help, @scout86 . I appreciate your thoughts on all of this.

 

[scout86]

In family therapy, I think she's starting to see that she's taken a lot of our differences as personal affronts, thinking I was rejecting her or hating her (her words), when I was just honestly trying to be authentic and kind with her, in ways that come from my real self instead of trying to "perform" for her.

I hope this is really true and honest on her part! If it is, it sure seems like there's hope for coming to some sort of functional relationship with her.

she shifts from one position to another to another, even within the same conversation.

You let me recognize something I'd never really paid much attention to when you said that. My mother did that too. I noticed it. It was hard to deal with because I had NO idea how she could do it, but I guess I'd accepted it as "normal". One of the last times she did it, she had expressed that she wanted me to come and see her. (Something I usually did my best to avoid.) I actually said that I could, because my schedule was such that I could stop by for a limited amount of time and I had a clear exit. As the day approached, she said that that moment wasn't good for her. I said ok, that I'd come some other time. (That wasn't what I was "supposed" to do. I was supposed to express regret and try to convince her to let me come. Which, I think, made the visit somehow more "valuable" to her?) Anyway, I refused to play the usual game, just said "ok", drove past her town and went home. (I was on a road trip.) When I got home, the night I'd originally planned to be at her house, when I made the mandatory phone call, she asked where I was. When I said "home", she asked what I was doing THERE. (Well, it's where I live.....) The whole thing was funny, but confusing, for sure. No idea what it's supposed to accomplish.

I feel guilty, just sitting there as she's emotional and upset.

I can relate to that too. With anyone, I don't know what to do when they're upset. It seems like it's my job to "fix it" somehow and I usually don't know how.

I appreciate your thoughts on all of this.

You're welcome! But I appreciate your insights too. This whole conversation has helped me too.

 

[DogwoodTree]

If it is, it sure seems like there's hope for coming to some sort of functional relationship with her.

I'm beginning to think this might possible...not so sure about my sister, though. And honestly, I'm struggling a bit with whether I even want to still try to work things out with them. I held on for so long and put up with so much, and now I have an opportunity to get free of it. Do you ever regret cutting her out of your life? Do you ever wish you had been able to work this stuff out with her? Or are you grateful for the freedom and just wish you had done it sooner?

It was hard to deal with because I had NO idea how she could do it, but I guess I'd accepted it as "normal".

Yes, exactly. I really thought this was normal. I still rely heavily on my T to point out when this is happening with my mom, because I just automatically "shift" with her, and even if I'm disagreeing with her, the whole context of the discussion can jump from one paradigm to another to another. It was less than 2 years ago that I realized, while talking with a friend, that I could change the topic of conversation without offending the other person, and that in fact, the conversation can get pretty boring with most people if I don't contribute to creating some variety in it. I just always thought it was the other person's right and responsibility to determine the entire context and topic, and that it would be rude of me to expect consistency in logic or to change the topic myself.

The whole thing was funny, but confusing, for sure. No idea what it's supposed to accomplish.

I think they do it to keep us guessing...and to keep us always "wrong." There's never real approval. Ever. Although sometimes they fake approval in front of other people to make the family look good. My mom did this with a guest of hers a few weeks ago...the day before, we had a family therapy session, and she had said some awful things about me. Then that night, I brought something over to her house while a friend of hers was there, and my mom had these amazing things to say about me, and was smiling at me and looking so proud...as if the conversation the day before had never happened, as if we were the closest of friends and mother/daughter. It was jolting and disturbing.

 

[scout86]

Do you ever wish you had been able to work this stuff out with her?

In my own case, the only way I could have worked it out would have required her being a totally different human being. I occasionally wonder what it would have been like to have a different mother. (My T have imagining the possibilities as a home work assignment). But I don't regret her absence.

 

[tin-man]

Hm, trusting your instincts, your perceptions can be difficult. Especially if you've had a lot of experience with people dismissing your interpretation of events. .

I think the best thing is to recognize that we're all flawed in our interpretation of events. And that your feelings, and thoughts are just as valid as everyone else. That they shouldn't be ignored, or ridiculed. It's good that you're asking these questions. Many people don't. They're satisfied with their biased view on things, and have no interest in changing that.

I get where you're coming from. I'm on the spectrum as well, and tend to rely on logic and analyzing patterns when dealing with people. When I last changed jobs, I found my new boss so confusing I created a database with his actions and attitudes compiled within. Then applied the data in work flows charts, and behavior analytics. All in order to find a pattern in his thinking that I could reliably use in navigating a relationship with him. I can only imagine how that looks to an NT :laugh:

As regards your T, I think sending him that email was a good choice. Even if he still disagrees, at the very least he should acknowledge where you're coming from. You've shown him real life examples of your mothers manipulative tactics. If he just disregards what you say, at the very least you know he isn't a reliable therapist.

 

[DogwoodTree]

You've shown him real life examples of your mothers manipulative tactics. If he just disregards what you say, at the very least you know he isn't a reliable therapist.

My individual T actually pays really close attention to what I say, most of the time. The past few weeks, especially, his insights have been really helpful in organizing my thoughts as I prepare for each family session. It's the family T that I'm not sure is really paying attention.

At this week's session, the family T did a good job of helping my mom see how my mom's trauma background affects and has affected the way she interacts with me and others. Apparently she had never put those pieces together for herself before. But she can seem to "get" something in one conversation, and then just a few days later, she can have a totally different perspective, as if that conversation never happened or happened in a completely different way. This phenomenon happened again just this week. She and I had a conversation last week where she said she realized I had made some significant concessions on the financial side of things, and she really appreciated that and thought it might make staying together financially possible. Then this week at our family therapy session, she started the session saying that in our conversation last week, I was supposedly asking for even more money from her and she couldn't figure out how to make that work because she said she's been so overly generous with me already to the point where it made her physically sick. The shift in her opinion of my position on the finances was totally bizarre, complete 180-degree flip from where she was in the conversation last week. I was dumbfounded. I couldn't even think of how to begin addressing the discrepancy.

 

[tin-man]

My individual T actually pays really close attention to what I say, most of the time. The past few...

It sounds like your mother is one of those people who needs attention, who needs other people to see her in the best light. Even if it jeopardizes her relationships with those closest to her. I get how it feels to have people in your life who show two different faces. One to you, and one to the outside world. It's confusing, and takes a toll on your mental state.

You can still have a relationship with her, but I've found it's best to maintain an emotional distance to such people (not easy when she's your mother, and business partner I know). But if how she's acting is causing you so much anxiety and distress, it's the healthier choice. You need to look after yourself first. You're not going to change your mother's behaviors, even if she insists otherwise.