Fight/flight/freeze - is it possible to change your default response?

[Marvel545]

I have read people here before saying that they took martial arts lessons etc to feel more confident, empowered and more prepared/able to fight back and protect themselves. I’m not sure whether that is the same though... I think I could learn something like that but, in the moment, I don’t know that I would fight - I suspect I would still feeeze? And I don’t need/want to actually fight in the situations I’m talking about - it is more about wanting not to freeze to improve my self-advocacy, I think.

Thankyou!

I've done a lot of martial arts over the years. I've done - Boxing, Karate, Thai Boxing, Eskrima, Kickboxing & a bit of BJJ.

I think martial arts can be really beneficial, when combined with with work on the mental aspect of PTSD. In my opinion they come hand in hand & do have areas of overlap. Martial arts can really help with self control & focus.

If I were you, I'd certainly give it a try. There are a lot of martial arts establishments that are really friendly now.

I'm actually going to try a new martial art soon called Keysi. It is based around self defence on the street. It's actually used in films for fight scenes. It looks pretty fun.

 

[Gemini83]

My therapist recommended The Body Keeps The Score, I started reading it last night. I’m not too far into it but it’s very good and interesting. The chapter I’m on currently is about fight/flight/freeze responses.

 

[Friday]

I have read people here before saying that they took martial arts lessons etc to feel more confident, empowered and more prepared/able to fight back and protect themselves. I’m not sure whether that is the same though... I think I could learn something like that but, in the moment, I don’t know that I would fight - I suspect I would still feeeze?

Training the fight response instead of just training fighting skills would usually need to be a part of that.

Which means training outside of a dojo.

And includes a LOT more play -and a lot less aggression- than most people realize.

 

[Abstract]

Wish I had time to say more! Yes it is. Pete Walker was also a game and life changer for me. My brain deals well when it understands the underlying mechanisms to something. I like understanding the theory and then I aim at it and try to run it down.

For me unfreezing and actually developing a fight response were two different projects. Unfreezing probably the biggest issue in my life of all things. Realising I had no fight response and that I needed one at times was very disturbing and started me on a long path that eventually led me to shout out stop when I was last assaulted a few years ago. I cannot say what that meant at the time. It was the fruit of years of hard work attempting to minimise my total distaste and fear of anger and it brought so much fear out. After I realised anger was a necessity for a healthy life. Unfreezing and the fight response may be two separate projects to me but they of course had a huge impact on each other. Have you read the Four F's article by Walker?

 

[barefoot]

I started this thread in a triggered state after I failed (yet again!) to set boundaries and self-advocate in a medical appointment. Didn’t realise at the time that I was so triggered ? but then I got a bit overwhelmed and couldn’t really take in all your responses, so then I decided to step away from it for a bit...and then I totally forgot I’d started the thread in the first place! So, I’m sorry that you folks took the time to respond and then I disappeared!

I have the follow up medical appointment on Monday and, as if my magic, I have just suddenly remembered this thread! It has been interesting and useful reading through it again. I definitely have work to do with boundaries, self-advocacy, freezing...

I think it is about resetting the default response that we have learned. From my experience it wasn't about getting to angry (while frozen or pre frozen), it was about tricking my body into moving. That was all I needed to do in order to stop the default freeze response. The rest, the fight/flight stuff came naturally afterwards,

This is a really useful point, shimmerz - I am learning how important moving is. It sounds like you did so much great, hard work in this area and I am inspired by the progress you made.

My worst issue is a vocal freeze.

Ugh! Yes....I used to get this voice hijacking in therapy all the time - sometimes along with full on dissociation but other times just on its own - and I found it so distressing. I felt so frustrated, ashamed, powerless and alone when it happened. It does still happen now - in therapy or in situations eg medical where I am struggling with boundaries - but less often. Sorry that this is an issue for you too ?

Some of it may be shifted through cognitive work too. Learning and role playing self advocacy - and challenging cognitive distortions that may be contributing to freezing - can go a long ways to actually being able to do it when needed.

I had therapy session the other day and mentioned to my T that I have my follow up medical appointment next week - I had told her before what happened last time. She is great at helping me to prep for medical stuff - I didn’t ask for her help with the last appointment because I didn’t anticipate it being as stressful and invasive as it was so I got caught out. So, this time she was keen to help me with the self-advocacy/boundary setting. The idea of role playing these situations and conversations with her feels hideously exposing and unpleasant. But she did talk me through some possible situations and responses and suggested I practise saying some things aloud at home in prep. So, I think I will do that before the appointment.

You mentioned the cognitive distortions that may be contributing to my freezing...are you able to give me some examples of that as I think this sounds interesting and potentially useful but I’m not really clear about what sort of thing you mean. Sorry if I’m being thick!

I'm actually going to try a new martial art soon called Keysi.

Did you try this yet @Marvel545 and, if so, how is it?

Training the fight response instead of just training fighting skills would usually need to be a part of that.

Yes, that’s what I’ve been thinking...that having the skills is all well and good but, if my default response in the moment is still going to be to freeze, having the skills won’t really matter.

And, I suppose, it’s not really that literally wanting to be able to fight is the issue...it’s actually more about not freezing and letting things happen but being able to speak up and set boundaries.

For me unfreezing and actually developing a fight response were two different projects

Are you able to say any more about this @Abstract or is it too much/too complicated to articulate here? It sounds like you have made great strides in this area with your own work - wow!

I haven’t read any of Pete Walker’s books but did read around his website ages ago and I think I remember reading his 4Fs article. I will reread this afternoon to refresh my memory on it!

I also started reading The Body Keeps the Score over a year ago but found it very tough going....I found it hard to get any of it to stick...I had to keep rereading bits and kept forgetting what I’d read. Maybe I wasn’t in a place where I was ready to take it in...I think I have made progress with quite a few things since then, so maybe now is the time to give it another go.

Thanks again everyone for sharing your experiences and insights here - it’s all really good stuff. Sorry I went awol from the thread for a while but I’m very glad that I suddenly remembered it was here today!

Hoping it can help me in prep for my appointment next week so that I have a better experience than last time!

 

[Justmehere]

You mentioned the cognitive distortions that may be contributing to my freezing...are you able to give me some examples of that as I think this sounds interesting and potentially useful but I’m not really clear about what sort of thing you mean. Sorry if I’m being thick!

Good question! It will vary person to person.

For me, if I start thinking, “I can’t escape this” or “this is unbearable,” or various versions on those themes, while already anxious, my head will fog out and i’ll shut down. If I start to think, “I will be in danger if I speak/advocate,” I’ll be tempted to fawn.

Our thoughts can really contribute significantly.

If I think, “I have choices” or “I can protect myself now” it will lower anxiety and increase flexibility in choosing how I want to respond.

Role play feels silly but it can help things become habit. I sometimes write out what I’ll say as practice. Not just what I’ll say to the other person, but also to myself. Trying to think of the challenges to cognitive distortions while in the moment pretty difficult, but having them practiced beforehand makes it easier.

 

[Marvel545]

Did you try this yet @Marvel545 and, if so, how is it?

Good to see you here ? I haven't tried Keysi yet. I do like the principles that it's based around & it is something I intend to do. I love martial arts & I love training. I think the key thing to do is to find something that strikes a chord with you. It doesn't have to be something main stream, like boxing or MMA.

I've found Pete Walkers book quite helpful, I've just started the body keeps the score as well. It is heavy going.

 

[Tinyflame]

Amongst the rest, I get this too: :(

I used to get this voice hijacking

 

[barefoot]

Thanks @Justmehere

Off the top of my head, I think I have a tendency when it comes to medical appointments - especially if I’m already feeling anxious - to think things like: “doctors don’t care”, “doctors don’t listen”, “they’ll do whatever they want anyway”, “I am just a body - a piece of meat”, “they are in charge”, “they must know what they’re doing and know better than me so I should let them get on with it and not be a pain”, “I’m pathetic for finding this so stressful”...

So...yeah....I guess there are some distortions there! ?

Will reflect on this more... I like the idea of coming up with more positive, self-empowered statements to flip things around and focus on but I can’t think of any at the moment. Thanks for giving me your examples.

 

[Freida]

I'm a flee-er (is that a word?) I get triggered and POOF! I'm outa there. I have learned (mostly) to control it but it's been a tough reboot. Lots of counseling, lots of testing myself, lots of admitting it's my go to so my supporters can help me stay put

One of my statements to swap around was "I have to get away from here" to "I am safe here so it's safe to stay" (yep --safe said twice in that)
simple but effective.

 

[Tinyflame]

I feel like that too @Freida , all the time. :(

I feel so crappy I'd actually go the Dr, but I don't have one. But I know all that would come out is, "I feel great, all good'. I can't get through the steps- I can't 'think' at those times, it just 'comes out', even if I don't want it to. Like, how is the fastest way to get out of here?, is over-riding my mind and heart, and it 'happens'. :(

Good luck @barefoot. :hug:

 

[Abstract]

Hi @barefoot!
I relate to the freeze in medical situations. :( Sorry you went through that. Hope its settling now.
No worries. Shall try to express what happened for me as best as possible. :/ The way I understand it well balanced people flexibly use the 4 fs when they need to, according to what is most helpful or suitable for the situation. And when none are required they don't use them. It is also essentially a boundary thing. Flexibly and intuitively managing ones boundaries appropriately. Apparently those of us who are traumatised usually shift into over management and under management of boundaries. The patterns sometimes changing.

To me unfreezing was about dealing with dissociation and freeze states. I needed to have skills for specific situations and then practice wanting to be present and attempting being present every hour and every minute. A mind change as well as skill development. For me. Without realising it prior to that I spent all my mental energy targeted on not being present. Trying to disappear. My way of trying to say safe. Essentially trying not to be. Mindfulness and a million other things helped all this. Including stuff mentioned by others here. Obviously grounding etc. I needed to see it differently and look at it differently too though for the bigger shift to happen. That didn't mean I could automatically access fight when it was best suited.

Fght being missing was about me not having access to that option when it was appropriate. And denying my anger. Anger triggered me and I discarded it as unhealthy because of negative examples of the expression of anger. Along with being brought up trained into not having boundaries. I did a lot of research on the importance of anger. Its roles. How feeling and acting are two different things. Healthy and unhealthy expressions of anger. Assertiveness is fight. Did a lot of work identifying anger, trying to express it. Worked in t with a therapist practicing expressing it. I had to change my thinking about it. Was always assertive when it came to others but not when protecting myself. I believe people who are stuck in anger have a thought process around it too. Sometimes expressing it as aggression. They think its empowering or a strength rather than seeing what it really is and what it really does to their lives.

It took me many years of really hard and consistent work to get anywhere but I was very motivated as had realised how my tendencies with both left me getting reinjured. Not able to protect myself properly and I was at a point where I had had enough of the way things were. I was terrified to change and face these but more terrified of my life continuing as it was. I still have to work on all of it and still hate anger but make myself connect all the time. When my husband hit me and I said loudly "no stop" it was the first time I ever could do that. The backlash was terrible after but it was life changing for me. He became more violent in response briefly and it also helped me realise the way I had responded as a child was adaptive. Its just that I got stuck at that point which set me up in lots of ways. Ultimately this actually ended up stopping the very mild domestic violence I had happening. It wouldn't have in my childhood situation.

Not sure if that was what you were asking or not! I need to do medical stuff have been putting off for many years and have no trust I won't freeze. Or be able to speak. Hope things are solid enough not to but I guess there is only one way to find out.

You are much braver than I am talking about all that with your t!