News Priest sex abuse scandal.

[blackemerald1]

how there are people who still go to a Catholic Church in preference to other places of worship.

^^ Because the Catholic Church and all other religions (because sexual abuse isn't confined to just Catholics or religion of any denomination) - do have very good reasons for existing and do benefit many members of society. They (all) have their place and should continue to do so.

It's not all bad and I think that this is why they all did actually get away with it for as long as they did (and honestly probably why it is still going on even now) -

Not all Catholic priests are bad - but the ones that were got protected from discovery by the church and it's supporters until the victims and the investigators/supporters became so loud that the rest of society had to turn and listen and question. The Catholic church and all other organisations that allowed or protected perpetrators of sexual abuse only ever got away with it while nobody listened.

I think this is true of all abuse.

 

[Tinyflame]

Not all Catholic priests are bad - but the ones that were got protected from discovery by the church and it's supporters until the victims and the investigators/supporters became so loud that the rest of society had to turn and listen and question. The Catholic church and all other organisations that allowed or protected perpetrators of sexual abuse only ever got away with it while nobody listened.

I think this is true of all abuse.

I think so too. ^^ I think that is why there are attempts to hold accountable every offending party, as there should be. Whether it was 10 years, or 40 or 50 years ago. It's my understanding they are sincere in that. And yes, parishioners are just as horrified.

How much evil does the institution need to perpetuate before people decide - this can’t be what my god had in mind...

I'm very certain 'God' never had that in mind too. But that is the fault of the individuals responsible. And it is reprehensible.

I do believe, individuals without good intentions often try to align themselves with people and places that do.

I think though there is a danger in allowing one's self to miss the scope of what @blackemerald1 referred to : abuse of children. Where you find children, you will find predators trying to access them. Much like the MeToo movement, victims are hardly few and far between when people begin talking. I must say I could easily sign up for MeToo, but Church was one of the only few safe places.

I know this though, too: in countries such as my own, we have freedom of religion, including not to hold any belief, it's sort of take-it-or-leave-it. My mom's family was not so lucky, all but 2 were killed for being RC- peaceable people who died for believing in a peaceable, everyone-is-equal-and-should-be-cared-for-with-dignity belief system. So on the one hand, people were threatened or dying (and still are) for beliefs that fight for human rights and dignity, to care for those least able to care for or protect themself, and to stand shoulder-to-shoulder to do so (and one might ask or consider, why is doing so such a threat?); and yet others entrusted with fostering and beholding that are committing the same crimes that are absolutely unacceptable and cause grievous harm. And just like my experience in the School system, or with some of the Medical Profession, or in Business (as an adult) others are covering it up to avoid the backlash and scandal, and financial fallout, and Reputation destruction.

But for the most part some of us still go to Drs, still send our kids to School, still return to gynecologists; still call the Police or Fire Dep't in an Emergency; still go to Church. For every one and every thing that is good, right, and above board about it. Because much like the forum, good people trying to accomplish good for others together can be a force for good. And try to not hold unfounded stigma- just like- ~ 'Everyone with ptsd will go ballistic (or does) and commits violent crimes'. (No, of course not). Just as they used to estimate in Criminology 2-4% of offenders committed 98% of the crime recorded. And I would not be surprised if most offenses in the Church (or elsewhere) were repeat offenders protected by the same people or groups of people.

I think intent, culpability, responsibility, transparency, and restitution are minimum requirements for the present and future. JMHO.

 

[Ronin]

This ^^.

Basically my argument, people aren't structures to which they belong. Guilt by association or automatically assumed badness of some sort should not be a thing, where we are talking groups that have just many peaceful, good people fellas, in them.

 

[Sideways]

And I would not be surprised if most offenses in the Church (or elsewhere) were repeat offenders protected by the same people or groups of people.

Absolutely this is consistent with the research. That a small minority of priests are leaving behind a trail of victims.

My problem is not that there are no good people in the Catholic Church. Because of course the majority of parishioners are horrified with the abuse that has been uncovered.

My issue is with the Church itself. Having been given the information: about the scope of the problem, about the sheer number of children being sexually abused, about the reasons why it has gone on for so long unchecked, and most importantly, about the change required to stop it from continuing ...

The Catholic Church has the information about the types of things that require institutional change in order to prevent this atrocity from continuing. And they refuse to change. That blows my mind.

The Church has effectively decided that protecting children from known pedophiles is not as important as being allowed to continue in their set ways.

 

[Sideways]

Sorry, can’t seem to edit that last post. But I need to clarify: the number of pedophile priests in the Catholic Church is a minority.

One of the things that makes the Catholic Church different though, is that while the pedophiles remain a minority in the Church, the number of offending priests is disproportionately higher than in other parts of the community, and considerably so.

 

[Tinyflame]

But I need to clarify: the number of pedophile priests in the Catholic Church is a minority.

One of the things that makes the Catholic Church different though, is that while the pedophiles remain a minority in the Church, the number of offending priests is disproportionately higher than in other parts of the community, and considerably so.

I just want to add to this @Sideways , respectfully, in an attempt to think even Larger in scope: ^^^

It has been my understanding it's actually quite an equal number between Catholic, Protestant, etc churches.. as well as Sports Organizations, Boyscouts and the like.

These are reported- exposed- or otherwise revealed/ 'caught' cases, or individuals. Which could suggest higher frequency- but it could also suggest more people coming forward about it. This is what I meant by @blackemerald1 's post, to which I agree, and to @frogthroat's post:

Aww Mach, if it wasn't a priest, it would be a CEO, a coach, and in my case a teacher. Many people in authority use their positions to do horrendous shit and they get away with it because of their status. It's easy to get the community and even the parents to believe they have a "troubled" kid. .

to which I also agree.

My issue is with the Church itself. Having been given the information: about the scope of the problem, about the sheer number of children being sexually abused, about the reasons why it has gone on for so long unchecked, and most importantly, about the change required to stop it from continuing ...

^^ This to me is a fair point. Though now zero tolerance is supposed to be in effect.

But I propose this: if the frequency was less, and the sanctions and vigilance greater for others in other professions,, why then can I at 49 years old, rattle off dozens of teachers names, ten's of neighbours, even more neighborhood 'familiar faces', (and the list goes on) who repeatedly assaulted, or tried to, myself, and often peers I was aware of? Heck, I had pervy teachers that were pervy to my siblings 8, 10 and 12 years older. None of any of these people had any connection to religion.

Now, I grew up in a day when kids did their own thing- and were happy to. But little (or no) supervision made for good picking ground. What did 'we' do? Well I know I refused babysitters; walked home out of the way, cringed when I was the (next) one singled out to 'have private time'. :( Everyone in the class knew, since they frequently went through it too. Now, take a conservative estimate: 5 kids in one c;lass; x8 classes/ day' x approximately 3 rotating schedules; x9-10 months; x 30 and 40 year careers. Just one person.

What I can say, is with the exception of one Principle eventually caught for fraud, not SA (who ultimately burned to death and so was in the news), not one of those individuals ever so much had a shortened career, let alone 'bad press'.

As a woman, or a child (and no different for boys) it was understood those things would routinely occur frequently, and so they did, and even 'telling' no big deal was made about it. And not just 'troubled' kids- the straight-A-sweet ones, too. Some of those individuals, no they weren't priests- they went on too to successful careers in Politics.

One (my) individuals experience does not make a statistic, but I think you'll find of us 'older' generation, SA was pretty constant in exposure, across the board. The only difference with the Catholic Church was, they were forced and now seem to have willfully chosen, to make it public. But what followed there? Exposed Coaches (including NHL and NFL) and sports teams, and Team Doctors, and personal trainers, and the average Jane/ Joe's Dr, physiotherapist; and on the list goes.

In other words, on a Larger Scale? Anywhere and everywhere they can. And still do. Especially when others think it's related to a profession, and not the illness/ mindset of the abuser.

And I will attest, they are still of the same mindset as Seniors. And thus far, they've come from every profession imaginable. IMHO opinion, it's a problem blind to race, color, gender or affluence. I have found it everywhere- in spades. (I recall my grandpa not even letting anyone but me- the last kid- get kissed on the cheek, because he told my mother he knew of 'so much harm occurring to children by the horrible men he knew', and that was in 1970. And he wasn't even Catholic).

As a side note, most of my best friends, co workers and bosses, the closest have been men. Because for me, likelwise the problem wasn't gender, it was abuse irrespective of gender.
.
I'm not minimizing what's been found in the Catholic Church; I'm saying Start looking around even deeper.

 

[blackemerald1]

And I find myself agreeing with you again ^^^ @Junebug

I had some very near misses with SA - though at the time I was a very little girl from a remote place and my notion of them being near misses only came about once I was an adult and realised exactly what I had almost become victim of. And at the same time realising that when it wasn't me it was most definitely another child who did become a victim.

I recall when I was a child whispered conversations happening between adults about various individuals in the community who were 'off'. (My term not theirs) Bad people didn't go to church in my childhood world - only good people did :frown: Teacher's, banker's even shop-keepers were all 'good' people. lol

My parents and grandparents never 'armed' me with information that helped me to avoid those people or stop unwanted things from happening to me.

The most horrifying aspect of this whole subject is that there is no paedophile stereotype and religious and all other organisations have a long way to go to put in place policy etc., that enable the complete transparency that will not allow sexual predators to hide behind any vocation and do their evil.

 

[Tinyflame]

The most horrifying aspect of this whole subject is that there is no paedophile stereotype and religious and all other organisations have a long way to go to put in place policy etc., that enable the complete transparency that will not allow sexual predators to hide behind any vocation and do their evil.

Yes @blackemerald1 .

As an aside, this only applies to my own thoughts, but once I started to look up 'why' someone acted as they did to me. Sadistic behaviour aside, at that time they thought it's because somewhere the perpetrator is relating to the child on a child-level. And that statistically of course, they had often been abused. Doesn't make all abused abusers, of course. But it satisfied anger for me, or 'not-knowing'. I don't 'get it', entirely. But because it's myself 'compassion' goes a long way (I would feel differently if it were my child). But myself, I see it as more troubled than anything. Hence why there are multiple victims. I don't believe science nor psychiatry really knows why, either. But, well, not sure what else I can think about it. So I don't. Just doesn't help towards trust or feeling very good about myself. But in another way, if we demonize everything, nothing gets solved. I don't understand why, but I don't think the perpetrators are sane enough to get ' why' necessarily, either.

 

[Friday]

a culture very specific to the Catholic Church that not only covers up pedophilia where it occurs, but actually actively protects the offending priests, and simply moves them out of the way of potential complaints.

This is one of those double edged things, in my understanding.

When used by evil people or in pride (ie to protect the church), it protects pedophiles & not only makes prosecution difficult to impossible... but gives them brand new hunting ground. :sick::mad:

The other side? This policy is centuries old. It was created during a time when there was ZERO legal recourse for abused children, or their parents; because priests were protected by law from bodily harm and by practice against all other actions against them. You couldn’t take a priest to court for hurting a child, aaaaaand you couldn’t beat them or kill them (legally) like you could if you found the butcher, baker, candlestick maker. But unlike nobility (who were also untouchable under both law & practice), “all” a parent had to do was apply to the church, and the sonnuvabitch would be stripped of his parish and exiled to some distant hole in the ground. Monasteries only gotten to by boat, with filthy weather, high emphasis on mortification of the flesh (starved and whipped daily) and low life expectancy were strongly preferred. :sneaky: Which suits me as a perfect way for pedophiles to live out their last days.

Did that always happen? Clearly not. The best of intentions is never 100%, and that’s before politics sticks it’s nose in. But the intent was there, to take the monsters away, and deal harshly with them.

Modernly, it makes more sense to prosecute. Even if a measly 3% conviction rate for sex crimes does a piss poor job of it... there’s both a willingness TO prosecute (both by the people, and by governments), a and a shocking lack of monasteries well stocked with scourges, flails, moldy food, & without electricity, heat, or contact with the outside world.

 

[Sideways]

Modernly, it makes more sense to prosecute.

I reeeally want to try and stay positive about this. Because yes, it does appear that prosecution is playing a pivotal role in changing attitudes at all levels.

So, post Royal Commission, we’ve had an Archbishop successfully convicted of covering up abuse & protecting known offenders, and of course Cardinal Pell, who is (hopefully) going to be facing court over pedophilia charges. When it starts to impact that level within the church, surely that will be meaningful pressure to change.

But it is a slow process. It actually took our Prime Minister to step in and tell the Archbishop, “Dude, those convictions mean you should probably retire...”, because he initially was going to continue on in his role (sigh) as Archbishop regardless of his convictions!

And there’s also the frustration that from the victim’s perspective, it makes far more sense to pursue a civil claim (where settlements remain private) than to pursue charges (where they have to prove their allegations beyond reasonable doubt, as opposed to the much lower standard for civil claims). Civil claims tend to settle (something like 98% settle out of court?), which means the allegations don’t contribute to changing the public’s attitude to (and awareness of) the issue.

It’s frustrating. The public generally seem to get that this issue is everywhere. And that complaints need to be taken seriously every time. And that children need to be protected from offenders. And....

The Church, on the other hand...is painfully slow on the uptake, and is insistent that it will not, for example, refer matters to the police if they come to light in the context of a confession. And those centuries old practices that are perpetuating the problem? To date, the Church continues to prioritise those practices above child safety. Urgh, so much for zero tolerance

 

[somerandomguy]

When governments have been willing to actually prosecute pedo priests - and this has traditionally been a very rare thing, and in many places still is - the Church starts doing stuff. They start by circling the wagons even more, as we saw in Boston, but if prosecutors and everyone else in the legal system actually decide to do their jobs and send real priests to real jail, things start to happen. It just takes motivation on the part of police, prosecutors, and judges that isn't always easy to find.

 

[shimmerz]

I was raised a Catholic. Fanatically. I often wonder what my parents would have done had they realized this type of abuse had happened. They died long before this issue came to light.

I am not Catholic anymore. I made that choice before these issues came to light. But let me tell you something. Some of the most twisted, raging, disconnected, sadistic people I have known were the priest and nuns that taught me. I wouldn't let my kids step foot in a Catholic church.

Here are the things that act as red flags to me these days:

1. Refuses to take responsibility for the harm committed towards others.
2. Grooms parishioners to have blind faith. No questions allowed.
3. When caught with hands in the cookie jar, throws cookies at innocent and says 'SEE! They did it. It wasn't me!'
4. People in authority of the people in authority who betrayed a primal trust - refuse to hold their people accountable.
5. Send priests off to another parish so nobody knew there was a problem - putting a whole set of other children at risk.
6. Send priests off to 'club med' (which was around the block from me) to be 'rehabilitated'. lol. Can you say 'take a 6 month vacation for being a bad boy?'

Still people went to church when it was widely known that this was a thing in the church and the church wasn't dealing with it. Who sent their kids at that time to be altar boys? WTF?

Honestly, I have very little respect for parishioners who turned a blind eye to this while it was going down. At the very least it shows that they were brainwashed still with the whole 'authority of priest - the speaker for god' bullshit. At the very least they should have refused to go to church until the church made ITSELF accountable for these ugly, ugly crimes.

But then again, people seem to be okay with the concept of children being f*cked by adults. Okay enough to just sit in their arm chairs saying 'tsk-tsk' when they see yet another priest coming to light with his disgusting behaviour. No idea why.