Breaking contact.

[Muttly]

I'm sorry for doing this in a hypothetical way but I'm trying to get some perspective.

Ok, so say like there's two brothers. Older and younger. Often times the brothers were really close. As they moved into adulthood there were times one or the other had stuff going on and they weren't close. After one of these times, younger brother was pushing to have more of a relationship with older. Older told younger that maybe they had grown apart. Not too long after this, older cut contact completely. Younger brother doesn't give up. For years, he keeps reaching out. Especially at special event times like holidays and birthdays. Sometimes just randomly. He emails, calls, texts. Always the same message. I miss you. Sometimes there's more. Sometime's there's something like I hope you are ok and that is always followed by something along the lines of "I'd really like to hear how you are doing". f it's a voice mail message he always sounds sad or slightly annoeyed. Often, when reaching out he will do all three - phone, text, email. Sometimes when he doesn't get a response he will try more than once. And no replies from older brother.

Is the younger brother just expressing himself and there's nothing wrong with his behavior? Or is there a point where he is being .... invasive or pushy or something.

 

[Sideways]

Or is there a point where he is being .... invasive or pushy or something.

Potentially disrespectful. Although he hasn’t been expressly asked to piss off, it is apparent that his desire to contact is not reciprocal. Respect for his older brother would be more along the lines of:
“It seems like my continued contact is not helpful to our relationship. I love you, and would look forward to hearing from you again, but will respectfully desist from my continued attempts at contact until I hear from you. Hope you’re well.”

We can’t crystal ball the infinite reasons why contact isn’t being reciprocated, but it sounds like there’s sufficient history in the relationship that one could take an educated guess at what the older brother wants.

I’m not into mind-reading, or assuming “He isn’t writing back, he obviously hates me”. He could be lying in a vegetative state in a hospital in the Bahamas, ya know?

But at the same time? This isn’t occurring in a vaccuum. There’s a long history between the two, establishing norms for this particular relationship. It would seem a bit naive to ignore that very relevant history between the two of them.

Be that as it may? Another person might have the view that this is borderline harassment, while yet another might consider it just one of those things you do for family - be there “no matter what”.

So, no right or wrong probably.

 

[Innordinate]

For years, he keeps reaching out.

How many years? At some point I would think younger brother has to stop banging his head against a brick wall.
And if he hasn't in "years" why not? What's he hoping to gain from it? What is he already getting from it?

Especially at special event times like holidays and birthdays.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a message to say happy holidays etc.
As long as that's all it is.
I think a happy holidays + miss you + whatever else, could be more invasive/pushy etc.

Often, when reaching out he will do all three - phone, text, email. Sometimes when he doesn't get a response he will try more than once.

Sorry to say. Sounds like harassment. Just this part. Almost manipulation even.
Just my opinion and from experience a phone call followed shortly after by a text followed shortly after by an email just pisses people off too. Can make them feel like you're trying to harass them into responding before they're ready.
And saying things like "I miss you" can also be manipulative just like sounding sad when leaving messages. Trying to elicit guilty feelings from the other person.
Even if it's not the intent.

Again, just my thoughts on it and like @Sideways said- cant crystal ball it.

 

[The Albatross]

Too ambiguous for conjecture for me.

 

[Muttly]

Thank you for the replies. Sorry it's taken me so long to get back. Struggling with some of the more basic stuff of life lately, which it makes it hard to be here.

I know I was being super vague. I think I needed to do that, so I would know the responses weren't favoring me because I'm a member here. Like if I wrote it in first person, and folks said things that supported my experience it would be easier to discount it as people being nice to me. And that's probably really messed up and manipulative.

So, basically I'm the brother that cut contact. (And actually the younger brother not that it matters?). And my birthday rolled around and my brother texted and called and then called again. And I got all twisted around again.

There’s a long history between the two, establishing norms for this particular relationship. I

Yes, indeed. Leaving out much of the long history, what it feels like to me is that if I was not in contact enough or in the ways expected by the family, I was "selfish". I got called this many times. I finally got fed up. As there seemed no middle ground accepted, I cut contact.

“It seems like my continued contact is not helpful to our relationship. I love you, and would look forward to hearing from you again, but will respectfully desist from my continued attempts at contact until I hear from you. Hope you’re well.”

If I got a reply like this, I would probably end up trying to re-establish contact at some point. Even if the contact was just left off the "I miss you" and "I would like to hear from you". But as long as that is always in there, I feel that pressure. I must be in contact. I'm selfish. Yada yada yada. And then I start to head trip myself and think, how people should be allowed to express there feelings so why am I making such a big deal out of him saying "I miss you".

Just my opinion and from experience a phone call followed shortly after by a text followed shortly after by an email just pisses people off too.

Well, and I guess, this is where what @Sideways is relevant. He has used it as a way to coerce me into answering. Once, when I was talking about decreasing contact not showing up for the holidays he called, texted, etc relentlessly. Then his wife called and left a message telling me I better pick up because he was preparing to drive to my house. I think that's about when I cut contact? Anyway, that time I texted him and told him that I wasn't going to respond and was going to a friend's house (and I did because he'd freaked me out) so there was no point in him coming I wouldn't be there. That may or may not have been the same time he called work and asked to speak to my boss. My boss wasn't there and I'd clued in a coworker already some about the situation so she didn't give out any info and didn't pass a message to my boss.

 

[Sideways]

I’m not going to be able to stop from projecting to some degree here, because I’ve only just discovered the extent to which Sideways being the ‘manipulative selfish’ one has been part of my family’s doctrine for years. So, take it with a grain of salt...

You can’t win here. If their narrative of you is “selfish brother”, that’s how it’s gonna be no matter how you react.

No reply to messages at all? Selfish.
Brief reply, like “Thanks, hope you’re okay”? Still selfish, because you aren’t reciprocating the “love and caring” that they’re heaping on you.
Long reply? Still selfish, because you still aren’t ‘equally interested in their life’.
Reply asking to reconnect and make up for missed years? Still selfish, because obviously you won’t be able to make up for how long they’ve been caring for you without reciprocating, or worse “he thinks we can just pick up where we left off? How selfish!”.

See how nicely that narrative works!? Once we’re in it? Once we’re “the selfish one”, everything we do can be (and likely will be) used to reinforce that narrative.

Knowing that? In my mind, the only thing that you can do is whatever is most comfortable for you, and do some radical acceptance with how that will be interpreted. If you’re prepared to keep copping this? Leave it as it is.

If it’s feeling a whole lot like harassment? (Hard to interpret it otherwise, since it’s unwanted). Then perhaps just ask, clearly and succinctly, “Please don’t contact me anymore.”

If you’ve done that once or twice already? Reaffirm the boundaries more clearly. “I have asked you to stop contacting me. Please respect my request and desist.”

This isn’t the kind of thing that I personally would go further than that. My final step would be to change my number, or block their number (changing numbers lets them know they are now disconnected, but it’s a pest to do it), simply because I don’t like fighting with family. No one benefits, and there tend to be people get hurt in the crossfire that you don’t have any beef with.

 

[Skywatcher]

I’m just now reading this whole thread. I don’t know your personal history, but you said that the brothers were close. If your younger brother sounded a bit desperate in seeking a connection with you again, perhaps he has an insecure attachment to you. He feels lost, anxious and worried. You on the other hand have avoidant attachment. I know how your brother feels. It is very painful, but it is work that he will have to do in order to heal. I’m just sad that you don’t give him a chance (with strong boundaries in place).

 

[Muttly]

@Skywatcher How many chances do you give someone. And what does giving a chance look like?

 

[Skywatcher]

@Skywatcher How many chances do you give someone. And what does giving a chance look like?

First of all, this is assuming that your brother isn’t an abuser or major trigger of yours, just someone that wants to maintain a relationship with you. Also, in your own therapy you have established what is a healthy plan for this to work.

A chance with boundaries might be trying a phone call at a set time/day once a month? Or, a willingness to come for a visit, but again, in a specified amount of time that you can handle.

On the “how many chances does one give?” I feel like you are wanting your space and he keeps trying to communicate more and more. Perhaps, if YOU establish the contact, it will fill that need of his and give you the sense of control that you need.

Again, if he is an abuser, none of these ideas apply. I’m just trying to help you see the other side of this. Because from my outside view, it seems as though he was close to you once and is trying to reconnect, but acting desperate in a panic because you shut down and ignore him.

 

[Muttly]

Does it really make a difference if he is a past abuser? I mean, other than calling me selfish (over and over) the last few years before I cut contact he wasn't abusive. And calling someone selfish (or occasionally making fun of him) isn't really abuse. Right?

Before cutting contact, I tried to set the terms. That's when the whole "you are selfish" thing started because it was never enough. Or right kind of contact. If I just liked doing email, that was wrong. If I did phone but didn't drive out to see him on holidays, that was wrong. It's like @Sideways described. The narrative is set, and I can't change it. Or maybe I could. Maybe if I could just suck it up and do everything they expect it would be fine.

As far as being close. We were. But then there were times when he disappeared and broke contact. In his mind that was always acceptable because he was either having addiction issues or trying to recover from addiction issues. We were close but I also was the pleaser of the relationship. And yeah, I guess he was an abuser when we were young. But when we were young he was also a teacher and protector. I don't really blame him for the abuse when we were young. It's the environment we grew up in.

I think I probably shouldn't have started this thread. I think I'm being difficult and/or manipulative. I'm sorry

 

[scout86]

I think I'm being difficult and/or manipulative

I don't see anything that actually suggests that.

The relationship sounds complicated. You both grew up in the same, bad situation, right? So it stands to reason you each have your own baggage as a result. Has he dealt with his? Under the right circumstances, I can see how a relationship would be good. No one else knows your childhood like the two of you. But, you might have had totally different ideas of what that childhood was like. And I can sure imagine situations where a relationship would be nothing but trouble.

I guess my thought would be to tell him what you want. To be left alone, occasional contact, whatever it is. Tell him he needs to be willing to take "no" for an answer, if you want. (Any "choice" where "no" isn't an actual option isn't really a choice, is it?)

 

[Deanna]

Addiction can be part of PTSD. I wasnt diagnosed until 54. I've had PTSD all my life and drank trying to deal with it ( not knowing) I always drank after work although the drinking is no part of my life now. Are you two the only siblings?