Relationship Mother of Children, Ex Girlfriend Wants to Leave for Good

[Kenjyn]

Perhaps give her the space she’s asked for. Respect the fact that, ptsd or not, when a person says “I don’t want you living here anymore”, or “I don’t want to do couples therapy with you anymore”, they’re entitled to have that respected. Not because they have ptsd, but because that’s what they’ve asked for.

You’ve laid a whole lot of responsibility for the breakdown of this relationship on her symptoms.

But reading your OP: you asked for sex, she turned you down (which any and every partner is entitled to do, at any point, and have that decision respected). That conversation went south, and ended with you kicking a table across the room.

I appreciate you really love this person. But she’s asked for space. Which sounds pretty reasonable of her in the circumstances. Not because she has ptsd, but because you kicked a table across the room after being denied sex.

Yes, that is exactly what it boils down to. And that all winds up being on me. I do respect her decision, of course.

She hasn't requested space, simply stated that she did not want to be in a relationship with me, or go to therapy with me. The reason for the emphasis on her symptoms is simply that this is a PTSD forum, and, without her symptoms, this would be a lot simpler. For example, we never would have had the argument in the first place, if not for her flashes of anger.

That being said, while I called out her symptoms in the OP, I also called myself out for being the actual problem -- that I hadn't been as understanding or supportive as I should have been. If not for me attempting to point out my mistakes on the matter, or this not being a trauma-specific forum, there would have been no mention of her symptoms at all.

Hope that clears it up! Thank you for your input, I truly appreciate it.

EDIT: I do want to clarify, though, that, while it does boil down to me getting mad at her for not having sex with me, that is not what I was truly mad at, only the start of the chain for my response. What I was mad at was her tendency to change or make up her mind about such things, and not tell me, and then become annoyed when I didn't know that she had made the decision.

 

[Sideways]

I also called myself out for being the actual problem -- that I hadn't been as understanding or supportive as I should have been.

Nope.

Basically what you’re saying is, “I wouldn’t have kicked the table across the room if it weren’t for her/her ptsd”.

Doesn’t fly with me. Your being violent is unacceptable. Period. You need to own that 100%.

Neither she, nor her illness, is any reason/excuse/reasonable context for you becoming violent.

 

[Kenjyn]

Nope.

Basically what you’re saying is, “I wouldn’t have kicked the table across the room if it weren’t for her/her ptsd”.

Doesn’t fly with me. Your being violent is unacceptable. Period. You need to own that 100%.

Neither she, nor her illness, is any reason/excuse/reasonable context for you becoming violent.

Yes, and what I'm saying is that I'm not trying to use it as an excuse for me kicking the table. I fully accept responsibility for that, because that came from my inability to react to the situation justly. Her trauma, or anything to do with her, do not excuse, or cause, my actions. I, and only I, acted the way I did, and only I am responsible for it. I'm not looking to drag her illness into that, and I apologize if that's the impression I gave.

 

[Friday]

What I was mad at was her tendency to change or make up her mind about such things, and not tell me, and then become annoyed when I didn't know that she had made the decision.

It’s a fair distinction.

Anytime, in a partnership...

“I decided we ______________. “ has the potential to end the relationship.

- I decided we aren’t having sex anymore
- I decided we aren’t eating meat anymore
- I decided we aren’t vaccinating the kids
- I decided we are going to rob banks
- I decided we are moving to New York
- I decided we...

In and of itself it’s disrespectful & dismissive... making unilateral decisions that not only affect both people, but actually involve the other person’s active participation... without their input much less their consent.

When someone takes it a step further and punishes or coerces the other person into doing something, regardless of what they actually want to do? We’re in waving red flag territory for abuse. It doesn’t mean it IS abusive, but it’s within kissing distance.

Victims of abuse often learn this kind of manipulation at their abusers knee. It’s how one is “supposed” to interact with others. From a position of strength, with absolutely no allowance for deviation or input (read no compromise much less respectful discussion, or disagreement).

THAT LEVEL of interacting with others? Takes most people -who are trying hard not to- years and years to learn to undo/reverse/do differently. But that’s assuming that they actually see something wrong with it and want to. Since this has been a foundational issue innyour relationship / it’s not news to her that she does this? It’s unlikely she sees anything wrong with it, much less would be willing to change it.

It’s fairly easy to work around someone who is like this, as long as you aren’t supposed to be in an equal partnership with them. Because they can’t tolerate equal partnerships. If they aren’t always in a position of strength, a position of absolute control, they feel victimized. It’s a very black/white mindset that doesn’t allow for partners (and sometimes not even peers). Since it sounds like she has enough latitude/self confidence for friends/coparenting? Personally, I’d seize on that. People who rise to this level, in my experience, tend to have a very small window of tolerance for “seperate but equal”. They can’t do partnerships, but the day to day distance of friends allows for a degree of equality unattainable otherwise. But the moment you shift from friend to enemy? It’s all out crazytrain war that has to be moderated by courts and officers of the law and will still be a neverending dramafest. So, if she can still see you as a friend? IMO, take that. Rather than attempting to force a relationship until she’s not capable of treating you like a human being but only as the enemy out to hurt her... regardless of how normal, rational, or reaasonable your intent or actions may be.

My 2.02

 

[Kenjyn]

It’s a fair distinction.

Anytime, in a partnership...

“I decided we ______________. “ has the potential to end the relationship.

[...]

In and of itself it’s disrespectful & dismissive... making unilateral decisions that not only affect both people, but actually involve the other person’s active participation... without their input much less their consent.

When someone takes it a step further and punishes or coerces the other person into doing something, regardless of what they actually want to do? We’re in waving red flag territory for abuse. It doesn’t mean it IS abusive, but it’s within kissing distance.

Victims of abuse often learn this kind of manipulation at their abusers knee. It’s how one is “supposed” to interact with others. From a position of strength, with absolutely no allowance for deviation or input (read no compromise much less respectful discussion, or disagreement).

[...] It’s unlikely she sees anything wrong with it, much less would be willing to change it.

[...] If they aren’t always in a position of strength, a position of absolute control, they feel victimized. It’s a very black/white mindset that doesn’t allow for partners (and sometimes not even peers). Since it sounds like she has enough latitude/self confidence for friends/coparenting? Personally, I’d seize on that. People who rise to this level, in my experience, tend to have a very small window of tolerance for “seperate but equal”. They can’t do partnerships, but the day to day distance of friends allows for a degree of equality unattainable otherwise. But the moment you shift from friend to enemy? It’s all out crazytrain war that has to be moderated by courts and officers of the law and will still be a neverending dramafest. So, if she can still see you as a friend? IMO, take that. Rather than attempting to force a relationship until she’s not capable of treating you like a human being but only as the enemy out to hurt her... regardless of how normal, rational, or reaasonable your intent or actions may be.

My 2.02

I would agree 100% that it would be a learned behaviour, but I'm not sure she has ever, or would ever go quite that far. She mainly does whatever she can to leave whatever isn't cooperating. Where I do object to that, though, is that she does recognize it, we have talked about it, and she TRIES to communicate it. For instance, I'll say "Do you want to have sex," and she says "No, I don't." I interpret that, of course, as "No, not right now," but she means it to be her telling me she made the decision. So, she told me, but not clearly. We didn't used to get that far, and she has grown a bit. She also does have a very black and white view of relationships, in general, and does feel victimized over things that should not necessarily be victimizing often. In the times that I have the wisdom to do so, if I back off for a little while, and come back and say whatever I had said more delicately, she takes it better. I do agree entirely that unlearning a lot of what BOTH of us have learned will probably take years. Personally, I would be willing to tough out that journey with her.

Sorry for mutilating your response, or if I misunderstood something you said here.

 

[Kenjyn]

Yes, and what I'm saying is that I'm not trying to use it as an excuse for me kicking the table. I fully accept responsibility for that, because that came from my inability to react to the situation justly. Her trauma, or anything to do with her, do not excuse, or cause, my actions. I, and only I, acted the way I did, and only I am responsible for it. I'm not looking to drag her illness into that, and I apologize if that's the impression I gave.

As an aside to this, I am grateful to you, Sideways, for bringing this issue up. I do have a history of overcorrecting myself, and it's entirely possible that I have subconsciously attributed more to her trauma than possible. I do stand by that the main issue for the majority of our relationship was my carelessness, me not taking her trauma into account, and therefore mistreating her.

I will try to reevaluate with this in mind.

 

[Friday]

<grin> No worries about mangling response or misunderstanding.

Again, this is all just my experience & observation... not saying what you “should” do, I don’t know her or you, just my experience with the type.

but I'm not sure she has ever, or would ever go quite that far.

To me it reads she’s not only willing to go that far, she already is. .

Where I see the retaliation coming in?

No I won’t have sex with you.... AND now that you’ve disagreed with me I ALSO won’t do counseling.

I decided we... and now that you venture an opinion... AND here are the consequences for that / we’re not going to do something you want to do that I’ve agreed on.... venture to have an opinion on that?... BIGGER consequence! / get out ... venture any kind of opinion on that?... EVEN BIGGER consequence / move out (had enough yet? Ready to concede meekly? Do as I say without any kind of reaction -OR- )

And the escalation just keeps going, right up to ending the relationship (and quite possibly beyond)

 

[lostforgottensoul]

No I won’t have sex with you.... AND now that you’ve disagreed with me I ALSO won’t do counseling

This right here is what has me twisted sideways on this thread. She has every right to say "no...period" to sex. But then she goes and says "now I we won't be doing counseling either" as almost a punishment for something. Its manipulative as f*ck in my opinion. Or in my view. Its not the no to sex part. Its the rest that continues after that, that has me twisting on this one. Like, what is that?

 

[Kenjyn]

<grin> No worries about mangling response or misunderstanding.

Again, this is all just my experience & observation... not saying what you “should” do, I don’t know her or you, just my experience with the type.


To me it reads she’s not only willing to go that far, she already is. .

Where I see the retaliation coming in?

No I won’t have sex with you.... AND now that you’ve disagreed with me I ALSO won’t do counseling.

I decided we... and now that you venture an opinion... AND here are the consequences for that / we’re not going to do something you want to do that I’ve agreed on.... venture to have an opinion on that?... BIGGER consequence! / get out ... venture any kind of opinion on that?... EVEN BIGGER consequence / move out (had enough yet? Ready to concede meekly? Do as I say without any kind of reaction -OR- )

And the escalation just keeps going, right up to ending the relationship (and quite possibly beyond)

Oh, no, I agree on that entirely. It's just that ending the relationship seems to be about the limit. We've been in situations like this before, and I've seen it happen with her and other people as well. That was going to be one of my major points I wanted to hit on in therapy. We've talked about it before, and she hits on it as a "Yeah, I'm strict, but you're allowed to do the same," or, if I'm reacting "badly," it's because I'm "acting like a child," which, I know. Big red flag. I was referring to not thinking she'd go as far as throwing a huge public tantrum, like involving courts and whatnot. Although, something she also does is "If you think this is what I'll do, I'll do exactly that," which I also think is bad.

This right here is what has me twisted sideways on this thread. She has every right to say "no...period" to sex. But then she goes and says "now I we won't be doing counseling either" as almost a punishment for something. Its manipulative as f*ck in my opinion. Or in my view. Its not the no to sex part. Its the rest that continues after that, that has me twisting on this one. Like, what is that?

That's mainly where my issue lies, as well. It's not necessarily the fight, or what caused it that are hurting for me. It's her explosive reactions, and then the complete loss of emotion at the end. I handled it poorly, of course. I can accept my actions. What I'm having a hard time accepting is the exponential growth of "punishment" for it.

I'm trying my hardest to not sound negatively emotional here, not sure how these messages are going to come off. All good intentions! This just still hurts a lot on my end.

 

[Justmehere]

This is a challenging situation to be sure.

She hasn't requested space, simply stated that she did not want to be in a relationship with me, or go to therapy with me.

That is a way of asking for or creating space, distance, in the relationship.

I was referring to not thinking she'd go as far as throwing a huge public tantrum, like involving courts and whatnot. Although, something she also does is "If you think this is what I'll do, I'll do exactly that," which I also think is bad.

She’s a mom. She has a history of escalating and trying to manipulate you and penalize you. She’ll put her kids above you easily. A custody fight isn’t that distant from the current reality, but hopefully this dies follow the patterns of the past and she cool off.

What I'm having a hard time accepting is the exponential growth of "punishment" for it.

There is this nutty phrase a therapist said to me once: “sometimes we have to accept the unacceptable.” He didn’t mean we have to condone behavior. But he meant accept it happened and we can’t change it.

There are some tough dynamics here. Owning your own boundaries, wants, needs, etc. is good. You may need to work on pairing it more with letting go of trying to change her. You won’t be able to do it anyhow. Until she wants to change and does the work, she won’t change. What your task is now is figuring out how you will respond and go from here as if she doesn’t change. (Which really, really stinks.)

Kudos to you though for working hard on trying to understand things better and on owning your part. That takes real courage.

 

[RVA21]

saying she still feels absolutely nothing for me, and never wants a relationship. She also doesn't want to go to therapy, because she does not know if she can ever trust me the way she has again, and therapy feels like she'd be forcing it

What you should do after someone says this ^ to you? Whenever I've said similar words to a guy, it's because I didn't have any interest in him any more. Sounds like that's what she's saying here, so it might be best that you each go your separate ways. I've known plenty of people who split from each other when their kids were still young, they made it work without too much bother and moved on to find new partners (while sharing parenting responsibilities). Kids can tell when their parents do not love, respect and care for each other (that's the sort of household I grew up in and it was miserable for all of us).

 

[Kenjyn]

This is a challenging situation to be sure.

That is a way of asking for or creating space, distance, in the relationship.

She’s a mom. She has a history of escalating and trying to manipulate you and penalize you. She’ll put her kids above you easily. A custody fight isn’t that distant from the current reality, but hopefully this dies follow the patterns of the past and she cool off.

There is this nutty phrase a therapist said to me once: “sometimes we have to accept the unacceptable.” He didn’t mean we have to condone behavior. But he meant accept it happened and we can’t change it.

There are some tough dynamics here. Owning your own boundaries, wants, needs, etc. is good. You may need to work on pairing it more with letting go of trying to change her. You won’t be able to do it anyhow. Until she wants to change and does the work, she won’t change. What your task is now is figuring out how you will respond and go from here as if she doesn’t change. (Which really, really stinks.)

Kudos to you though for working hard on trying to understand things better and on owning your part. That takes real courage.

Those are very good points, and a very good quote from your therapist. It's something I'll have to try and internalize.

What you should do after someone says this ^ to you? Whenever I've said similar words to a guy, it's because I didn't have any interest in him any more. Sounds like that's what she's saying here, so it might be best that you each go your separate ways. I've known plenty of people who split from each other when their kids were still young, they made it work without too much bother and moved on to find new partners (while sharing parenting responsibilities). Kids can tell when their parents do not love, respect and care for each other (that's the sort of household I grew up in and it was miserable for all of us).

I believe her that she has no interest in me anymore. The issue is, she has said, and believed that, in the past, and wound up feeling again. I agree that forcing something would be bad for the kids. And, if she never feels for me again, then that sucks, I'd hate that, but it is what it is. She's her own person, and I can't control how she feels or acts, nor would I really want to. I grew up in a very similar household, and, I agree. It's not fun. I think my main thing that I'm trying to hold onto is that "No matter what happens, we will both be okay, in time"