Different patterns and why we have a hard time changing our roles

[Butterfly64]

@TruthSeeker, Butterfly I could have written these posts myself ... Same thoughts and wordings. In fact, I keep wondering if regardless of the reasons why he won't/can't do the initial contacting if he seems genuinely grateful that I do is that enough? And if I never hear an "I miss you", is that the end of the world? The weeks and months of silence if I do nothing use to be killers. This typically happened after the perfect date. What has changed for me is the expectations. Now comes the questions. Am I being abused, manipulated, controlled? Am I obsessed, addicted, insane? But the focus is on me now. Two years ago, it was all him. He says and he does. Now I can work with my T on me. Do I need someone to call and miss me? Do I maybe just want it? I miss me. I need to believe that I am capable of attracting the right people. I am willing to change and it's already beginning.

So many unanswered questions....always questions...I hated that. I guess for many supporters after some time, may it be one year, two or three, their actions, the pulling away...it becomes less hurtful...it becomes a habit, which isn’t necessarily good! Of course you miss you! We change....we walk on eggshells....we beg for love, time and attention. That is not healthy for our self esteem!

 

[candor]

Can't habits change? Can't wounds heal? You are right that hurting less is not necessarily good but neither is it necessarily bad. If he was an alcoholic who abused you when he drank, it would be so much easier to find blame. I imagine that stress is the drug that alters their perception. The only solution some know is distance. Maybe if anything I became aware of how I stress my surroundings. Self awareness when someone can give you that is a great gift.

 

[Butterfly64]

Can't habits change? Can't wounds heal? You are right that hurting less is not necessarily good but neither is it necessarily bad. If he was an alcoholic who abused you when he drank, it would be so much easier to find blame. I imagine that stress is the drug that alters their perception. The only solution some know is distance. Maybe if anything I became aware of how I stress my surroundings. Self awareness when someone can give you that is a great gift.

Here is the thing...if they didn’t have PTSD, if they were simply jerks, who treated us badly, we would have walked away a long time ago. But we use PTSD as an excuse for them....he didn’t mean to hurt me with that remark....he wants intimacy, but he just can’t....he wants to spend more time with me, but he can’t. At one point we have to walk away, if it is killing us. My ex would say stuff which simply blew my mind...which hurt me sooooo bad, but I stayed. Not because I don’t think I don’t deserve better....I know my worth...but I didn’t know whether he really meant what he said or if it was PTSD talking. If de didn’t have PTSD those remarks would have been BIG deal breakers for me!

 

[Friday]

Then I would like to ask if there is some reason that you cannot change this way of thinking and what is keeping you from changing these thoughts?

Can't habits change? Can't wounds heal?

As I said earlier, none of your 4 patterns are ones I’ve lived... NOR are they types of people I’ve dated.

So it looks to me like you’ve identified both your “type” (emotionally distant self centered victims) & your own pattern (attempting to change them & being their saviour/martyr).

Maybe that’s the habit to change, if you’re unhappy? Who you date.

It would be incredibly difficult if you’re looking at people via who they could be IF.... to see people as they are, and even more difficult to remove the impulse to meddle/excuse/project/mold yourself into who you see they need to become what you want.

But, yes. I would say habits can change, and wounds can heal. Your own. Changing other people’s habits & healing their wounds? Is going about things bassackwards, IMO. If you’re looking for a relationship and not a child or a patient.

Not that you have to, certainly. My favorite uncle was a great example of a man who remained true to type; he loved mending broken winged birds. That’s who he was. And all of his ex-wives loved him for it. But none of them could stay with him once they were no longer broken. They had an ex-wives dinner at his house once a month, only one of the marriages ended badly, the rest all remained great friends with him and became friends of his new wives, and they were all permenant members of my own family (excepting 1). They were all very eyes open about the situation, however. Including the fact that one of his wives? Might become his last wife. None did. He died between wives. The one marriage that ended badly? Was with a woman who couldn’t accept that “this” was who he was, and he was uninterested in changing. He helped them change into who they WANTED to be, but he was already who he wanted to be. He was happy. They were happy. That really seems to be the difference. You’re UNhappy. But instead of looking at how you can change your own habits and patterns it’s wanting other people to change theirs.

 

[candor]

Here is the thing...If he didn’t have PTSD those remarks would have been BIG deal breakers for me!

And if you had had kids, Butterfly and he had talked that way to them, wouldn't it had been also a deal breaker? And haven't we all been jerks to someone who is less deserving? "Be nice or walk away". That's what you say to jerks. So I remember Anthony posting on the forum that being close with someone who has PTSD is saying yes to abuse. PTSD is not an excuse. It is simply an explanation. We need to put on the brakes when they can't. I really used to think I had boundaries. They were made of straw and now because of him, they are made of bricks. I believe that good can come from bad. Maybe that's why he is better at respecting me or maybe cause he prefers to miss me and not see me much. I have stopped wondering. It serves me best to imagine the best. Love is truly blind and some want to be right about being unlovable.

 

[Butterfly64]

And if you had had kids, Butterfly and he had talked that way to them, wouldn't it had been also a deal breaker? And haven't we all been jerks to someone who is less deserving? "Be nice or walk away". That's what you say to jerks. So I remember Anthony posting on the forum that being close with someone who has PTSD is saying yes to abuse. PTSD is not an excuse. It is simply an explanation. We need to put on the brakes when they can't. I really used to think I had boundaries. They were made of straw and now because of him, they are made of bricks. I believe that good can come from bad. Maybe that's why he is better at respecting me or maybe cause he prefers to miss me and not see me much. I have stopped wondering. It serves me best to imagine the best. Love is truly blind and some want to be right about being unlovable.

My boundaries with him were made of straw the first year or so. I was so afraid he would run away for good if I stuck with my most important boundary; no intimacy-no sex. The better I got at holding on to my boundaries, the more he isolated from me. Maybe he really did try to work on his intimacy issues...that intimacy equals relationship (dangerous) and maybe I pushed him too hard, because I need to know where we were going...whether or not there would be intimacy down the line, if I just gave him more time. I just got tired of waiting for something that would maybe never happen.
Why do you stay with him? I know you love him, but isn’t it better to let go? To either be alone or at one point find someone who is in a better place?

 

[candor]

@Friday What a beautiful story Thank you for sharing. I have always valued your insights regardless of whether or not we have agreed.

 

[candor]

Why do I stay with him Butterfly? I light up like a Christmas tree when he is around. When he is not throwing mud pies at me, I like the things he says and the way he says them. I like how I have changed since I have known him. I love disproving to him that he is unlovable. He can't say nobody when there is somebody. Making him laugh is heaven on Earth. After intimate sexual contact, he would have literally crawled up the ceiling and hung like a scary version of Spiderman if he could. He has violently pushed me out the door minutes after looking blissful. These reactions were heartbreaking to both of us. I reacted like you did Butterfly making it so much worse. It became a power struggle cause I hated being put in the friend zone. We had a turning point where his abuse peaked and I think he turned his agressions on his workplace instead. I gave him 4 months and when we finally met he just says "Why does this keep happening to me over and over again? Why is it so hard to be more self aware about how we affect others?" All this is so beyond wishing for sex or boyfriend. What is going on in that sick little head of mine deep deep inside that I stay? And the answer is ....I think I need to heal some old daddy wounds. Seeing my T on Monday. So that is how I fix my issues and worry less about how he deals with his. I have no clue as to how healthy I am anymore. I guess it depends on who you ask.

Clarification: I am convinced that I have been bestowed the honor of some trust and emotional intimacy in the limited capacity he has. It seems to be a bit of a compensation package for not being able to deliver sex. Sex brings out the worse in him. I have never initiated cause I don't dare. But there are always other concerns that seem more important to him: some latest new crisis so other issues are dropped.

 

[Butterfly64]

Why do I stay with him Butterfly? I light up like a Christmas tree when he is around. When he is not throwing mud pies at me, I like the things he says and the way he says them. I like how I have changed since I have known him. I love disproving to him that he is unlovable. He can't say nobody when there is somebody. Making him laugh is heaven on Earth. After intimate sexual contact, he would have literally crawled up the ceiling and hung like a scary version of Spiderman if he could. He has violently pushed me out the door minutes after looking blissful. These reactions were heartbreaking to both of us. I reacted like you did Butterfly making it so much worse. It became a power struggle cause I hated being put in the friend zone. We had a turning point where his abuse peaked and I think he turned his agressions on his workplace instead. I gave him 4 months and when we finally met he just says "Why does this keep happening to me over and over again? Why is it so hard to be more self aware about how we affect others?" All this is so beyond wishing for sex or boyfriend. What is going on in that sick little head of mine deep deep inside that I stay? And the answer is ....I think I need to heal some old daddy wounds. Seeing my T on Monday. So that is how I fix my issues and worry less about how he deals with his. I have no clue as to how healthy I am anymore. I guess it depends on who you ask.

Thank you for sharing...truly! I don’t know how you manage to carry on. I understand completely that he also makes you happy...not just sad, but for me....I was more sad than happy. He never raised his voice at me, never got angry when we talked face to face, only sometimes when we texted. He would behave like a spoiled child, when he couldn’t have it his way, when I wouldn’t settle for sex and no intimacy....both inside and outside the bedroom. He knew very well that I craved intimacy and even though he often said, that he understood that, he would still behave like a spoiled brat. There is no way I am ever going to put up with that again. Regarding the friend zone...when he could still spend and entire day with me (back in the spring of last Year) and he wouldn’t touch me at all....that was bloody torture. He claimed to desire me madly and yet he didn’t touch me most days. That was some confusing shit!

 

[candor]

I get tons of intimacy through talking these days with 30 year olds. It's cause it's safe to do that with someone who sees you as too old to be in a sexual relationship with them. Sometimes we think a guy can't open up when the truth is he can't with you if you are gf material. Apparently their parents were too busy to learn it themselves let alone teach it. Social media has made it difficult for young people to develop intuition and body language. They struggle and we who are older can help here by asking questions.

Torture is the right word for wanting to be touched by someone who is the center of your desire. I Iust now showed my neighbor the door. I told him that I prefer not to have to hear him tell me that he wants me every time he sees me. I was nice about it and he stormed out like a spoiled brat. I take it all with a grain of salt. I know how he feels. People sense if we want to be touched or called. Maybe they just prefer to be wanted. Perhaps we need to pay less attention to their ego and more attention to our own needs. Sex and dating is off the table till I have this sorted out.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I think everyone would like to have someone miss them. I miss my daughter terribly, and I could no longer trust her because she was in communication with both my X and brother-trying to play the middle.....but she didn't realize that she supported their cause. In my daughter's case, part of her is too angry to allow her to miss me, I wish she would....I wish I could have been the parent she needed when I was symptomatic.....she has PTSD also....and it was a shit show. She was surviviing....I was surviving...but all through everything I miss her every day. So, I guess it doesn't matter whether it's your partner or another family member.....when dysfunction occurs....you just need to step back and regroup.

 

[Friday]

I think everyone would like to have someone miss them

Nope. I hate that.

Enjoy me while I’m there, certainly, but don’t miss me when I’m gone.

It’s not realistic, but it’s my strong preference.

I’ve never really understood the whole needing other people to notice me to assign value to me. Value is intrinsic not conferred. Ditto, it’s extremely subjective. The most valuable person in one setting is the biggest liability in a different setting. Desired or despised? They’re the exact same person. So I don’t get hanging your self worth on other people. Much less the amount of pain you can cause other people (being missed / thinking so highly of myself and so little of you, that I not only believe my absence will hurt you but desire my absence to hurt you). But thats me. I’m far more inclined towards a “wish me one more day to stay” wanting a person to be around more, happy to see them rather than sad they’re gone.

***

On consideration?

I can thank my mom, I think, for that particular pattern in my life. She and my dad are pushing 50 years, but over 30 of them he was out to sea at least 6mo a year. We cheered him & wished him great times when he left. She talked about him every day, not sad he was gone but how excited he would be when he got back to see the XYZ we made, or how much he would love ABC... and beyond that? On his leaving and his return it was fun. When he was gone we’d go exploring (hop on trains, go climb mountains, meet new people & eat fast food & a hundred other things, when he was home we’d have pancakes with cartoons and family dinners and a hundred other things). Life was good. Because my mom loooooved my Dad & loved her independence. Each side, both when he was there and gone? We’re lived to the hilt. Ditto, my crazy huge extended family we’d “only” see a few times a year (10 hour plane trips), and that was fun, too. Sharing stories of what we’d all been doing & the lives we were leading, whilst going surfing and lighting bon fires and reassigning holidays (we view holidays as “suggested dates” in my family. Xmas, birthdays, eids, etc... aren’t about the day. If dad is out to see until Jan 7th? The 8th is Xmas Eve. Christmas in July has happened a few years.). Life wasn’t better or worse when he was gone or here, just different. Life wasn’t better or worse when with extended family there of 5,000 miles away. Just different. All variables = good. Separation ≠ distance. People not present = something to look forward to seeing them, not sad at not seeing them.

So, again, independence & koslig? Aren’t things I’m interested in changing. They’re patterns that started in my life because they were simply what was normal, and became patterns I chose for myself later on... when I dated people who didn’t like that. But I did. THEY might view that as wrong, and that’s fine. It’s wrong for them. Not for me.