Different patterns and why we have a hard time changing our roles

[Ronin]

a therapist isn't *being* intimate when they work on intimacy either..

This.

& Literal issues with intimacy, people do not go to a therapist necessarily, either.
They can go to a sexologist, who may or may not be also a therapist, on top of being a MD.

... Where, again, not intimate, just because theyre likely to talk about their sex lives, or do a pair therapy as their treatment.

 

[Gs172003]

yes the therapist is not fully intimate toward the client...this is a asymmetrical relationship (it is boundaried in some ways) but we have to be intimate in order to get teh full benefit of healing. The doctor who is providing the pap smear or the general check is not also providing his body to be touched but fully can touch the woman in this context.
I am trying really hard to convey the context of the conversation matters. But I am feeling I may have triggered some people and the conversation is no longer beneficial or safe for anyone.

I do appreciate the warmth challenges though.

Maybe I AM triggered but if you're comparing a pap smear to intimacy I think you have a problem.

 

[digger]

Can we bring this back to the original topic please. The OP seems to be using the term 'relationship' in the romantic sense and it would be useful to bring the focus back to that.

Whether a relationship with a therapist could be described as 'intimate' is an interesting topic in its own right, but if anyone wishes to continue that conversation further, please start a new thread for it.

Thanks.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I think every relationship is different- it depends on the interaction and treatment of each other, and the history. So, for me, no. There can be predominant or repeating fears, but that's all I can think of. I can't be a different person at my core than I am. I can make different decisions, but that's been a whole life-long process, vs being stuck. Maybe stuck as a term refers to much more than it seems on the superficial surface?

@Tinyflame Why can't we change who we are at our core? Does a liar, whose always lied, always have to be a liar-if that's at the core of the person? I challenge that statement. I think if we can become aware of our core personality, we can make positive changes in our value system..........isn't that what all of this is hard work is about? While our history is written, and done, our future is not and neither is who we are.....if we choose to take the time and energy to change it. Why can't you change your perception....and ultimately change the core beliefs in the person you are?

 

[grit]

@candor
I meant to respond to your original post and got derailed about other topics. But most of my adult life I have been more or less and (other things)

The new age mentality:

Don't worry about me and I won't feel responsible for you. I am responsible for my own feelings and happiness. As long as we find a common ground to mutually respect each other, I am ok and trust that your intentions are good. I don't like to see you suffer but accept that you will find a path that suits you best.

I would add though, since early in my marriage, this stand has been revised to reflect the reality of my marriage. I do not think do not worry about me anymore than worry about me. I sort of learned along the way thinking about your spouse often when you are not with them and there is no reason you should think of them is a sign of trauma. I see it this way. Either one is focused on others to the point of like they do not exist in their own body or one does not give shit about others and honestly never thinks of single human all day. Two extremes of the spectrum of thinking or not thinking others.
I can say from experience, if I am triggered, angry, having extreme stress, I am more over functioning of thinking about others...or going extreme to not think. this is when I know I am off.

On a good day, I do not think of my husband unless I need to do something with him or I am reminded of him or I am sort of angry about something with him etc. I do not carry him around. I have other things in life to focus and concentrate.
Now in therapy, I am learning much more about this for myself in such that I released my mother from a tight grip she had on me over the years. I completely separated from her psychologically speaking and do not feel thinking of her or when I do, I do not get triggered or have extreme emotions. I have seen her as she is today and I have seen myself as I am today and there is nothing to grime over that.
I have memories of what she was like and I see that as my past and something that I am not literally experiencing today. I do have my trigger points and still in therapy working through those but I can distinguish my mom then vs my mom today or even more profoundly for me - myself as a child vs today myself as an adult and the combination of both. This stance sort of takes care of the confusion about me and others in constant battle. I am more chilled than I have been over the years but I am still super sensitive as it has been not as long as I have been so over-focused or avoidance trip.

Not sure if this makes sense to your original comment but this is what I understood as it is about.

 

[Tinyflame]

That is a good question @TruthSeeker . I think I may be thinking of 'core' differently from you. As you said:

? Does a liar, whose always lied, always have to be a liar-if that's at the core of the person?

You see, I see lying as a behaviour, or a response, not a core belief or trait. A belief may be (from history): it's the only way to keep safe. Or, honesty will be used against me. Or honesty is not something the person values. A core trait may be, inability to think clearly under stress, and a question may be stressful. Or a core characteristic may be extroversion, and grandiose lies add 'spice' or interest, in someone's mind. Or, the core trait may be an inability to have a conscience. Or little regard for other's feeling (a lack of empathy, which however can be learned). The possibilities are endless, as are the beliefs.

. Why can't you change your perception....and ultimately change the core beliefs in the person you are?

I think a person potentially can, but it would not be easy, and there would have to be reason to change. There would have to be sufficient desire or doubt, to begin to contradict it. And as humans we have a confirmation bias for what we already think is true.

They say every person has about 5-11 core values, 5-7 being the real strongest or most predominant, and to go against those threatens anyone's sense of identity, even if that sense is a less than ideal one.

So for example, if I am loyal as a Top 5 core trait, it is possible (but unlikely) I will become disloyal without experiencing great distress. However, I could become loyal to someone or somthing else, instead of seeing something as a betrayal.

ETA, I can not speak for anyone else, just myself, and of what I know or others have told me. Perhaps it was personality before much else? But for example, I will never become an extrovert, but I appear socially extroverted because I find people interesting, or life moment by moment boring without it. I was a peacemaker, or hated conflict between others when I was only 1 or 2 years old. I will never get upon a stage, or sing, but I've never been able to stop my body from dancing (as a child also). Etc Now those are just characteristics, but I'm not going to 'be' someone else. I like to love, I like to stay out of attention, I like to feel grounded and safe, I like to laugh, and I hate to fight and condemn. It hasn't changed yet, I don't think it will. Except to just give up on life, in totality. But in all those ways and more, it's (also) going to effect what I think about relationships, and how I show up in them. Being an introvert, I'might look very sociable, but I'm going to trust virtually no one. Especially when it comes to my most innermost thoughts or what is dear to me, or my heart. That, I think, will never change for me.

 

[candor]

Intimacy means deeply knowing another person and feeling deeply known. Part of that is being able to acurately predict behaviour.
I felt this for the first time with my father. He was affectionate, promiscuous, avoidant (would have odd sleeping habits so that he was not around the family), couldn't work or study, the baby-sitter as opposed to the bread winner, couldn't be told what to do by anyone yet needed to control, often moody and pissy, loner, self righteous, abandoned his kids twice, always supported by amazing hard working wives. By puberty, I had my dad's promiscuous urges which did not go well with my strict catholic upbringing. I cut my dad off at the age of 40 and that literally felt like cutting off my arm. He had let everyone in our large family down... everyone of his kids. Now back to patterns. I have a passion for brain studies. I know that everytime we make a decision to take a path, its like riding your sled down new fallen snow. After a while like as if it were muscle memory you take the path most often taken by you. If you try a new path the ride down the new path will not seem familiar or comfortable and therefore your choose that which is familiar. One of the biggest jobs your brain has is to tell you "Hey this is me and I am right about this. Trust me, I have been down this path before and no reason to change or deviate. "

My go to to solve relationship trauma has been to be in relationships. At the present moment, they are mostly platonic. Growing up, I wasn't consciously aware that most of my relationships were to introverts/nerds who like me prioritized their long college education and then their carreers. I never had kids and I was never in a shortage of men regardless of the level of commitment. I was never in a push pull relationship until 4-5 years ago. My dad dies and I have held on to dear life to someone who ticks off all the checks on the list of traits my daddy had. Like my dad did, he can't contact me. I can't stop. Seeing him less helps me to be in a less addictive relationship. Being in my 60's, I rarely think of dad. I am fiercely independent and although I have recovered from the abandonment issues, I find it very uncomfortable to be having daddy issues at this stage in my life YUCK.

I had no intention about making this thread about me. I am really confused about how people don't seem to express that they miss each other as if that places you in the needy box right away. That is why I wanted to hear how everyone is doing out there and I have not been dissappointed by the response. Doesn't matter if the question was not clear..it got us thinking ....

As a child, I had to get use to the fact that both my parents were unavailable. I don't bear a grudge. I know that I am going to have to make better paths in the snow. I know how hard it will be. When heading towards a life of retirement, the only thing I know is joy matters. Focus on the solutions. I don't live in a place where people see each other that much so maybe travel might be an option. This thread and all its content has been triggering, touching and exciting. Did you ever wonder why you keep meeting the same type or keep having the same thing happen to you? That haunting quote about that which we resist continues to persist seems true to me.

 

[TruthSeeker]

@Tinyflame Someone's core belief could be that dishonesty in the form of lying is okay because it keeps them safe (you can see this in ritual abuse and mindcontrol victims). Lying isn't seen as bad....it is a necessity. Sure, lying is a behavior, but I think it can be a core value. It is all dependent on the person's experiences....perspective.....trauma......that's just how I see it.

I see core beliefs as a value set: I value integrity/honesty, loyalty, helping others/compassion when I have the resources, doing my best at whatever task is laid in front of me, the golden rule-treat others as you want to be treated, drugs are not always safe, and kindness counts.

I am honestly transparant to a fault (working hard not to be), over-zealous/perfectionistic (working to change that-I put way too much energy into things-not necessary), believe in racial/cultural/religious respect (and this comes naturally ), loyalty for me to others and others to me is huge (and I don't know when to bail-usually much later than sooner) and I believe that things almost always work out (which is mostly true-except for many (not all) close relationships).

While all of these values play out as "behaviors" in everyday life, they are like a code I try to live by. I did this but just a little twisted (over-did) to the extent that always keeping strictly with these same values like they are a rule (without flexibility) has allowed me to be abused (and actively help the abuser do it as my reactions are very predictable ).....when I tell every last detail because I want to be sure I'm seen as honest, and I want to be loyal, (and belong), well telling one's vulnerabilities then has been used as a weapon for those who abused me. So, while I generally think these values are basically sound, how I show them- the way I behave needs to change so I'm not so out there-vulnerable to being hurt or setting myself up for hurt. So clearer boundaries with these behaviors which are also protective in nature, is what I'm striving for-a balance between values and every day safety. I don't know if this makes any sense.

 

[Butterfly64]

Intimacy means deeply knowing another person and feeling deeply known. Part of that is being able to acurately predict behaviour.
I felt this for the first time with my father. He was affectionate, promiscuous, avoidant (would have odd sleeping habits so that he was not around the family), couldn't work or study, the baby-sitter as opposed to the bread winner, couldn't be told what to do by anyone yet needed to control, often moody and pissy, loner, self righteous, abandoned his kids twice, always supported by amazing hard working wives. By puberty, I had my dad's promiscuous urges which did not go well with my strict catholic upbringing. I cut my dad off at the age of 40 and that literally felt like cutting off my arm. He had let everyone in our large family down... everyone of his kids. Now back to patterns. I have a passion for brain studies. I know that everytime we make a decision to take a path, its like riding your sled down new fallen snow. After a while like as if it were muscle memory you take the path most often taken by you. If you try a new path the ride down the new path will not seem familiar or comfortable and therefore your choose that which is familiar. One of the biggest jobs your brain has is to tell you "Hey this is me and I am right about this. Trust me, I have been down this path before and no reason to change or deviate. "

My go to to solve relationship trauma has been to be in relationships. At the present moment, they are mostly platonic. Growing up, I wasn't consciously aware that most of my relationships were to introverts/nerds who like me prioritized their long college education and then their carreers. I never had kids and I was never in a shortage of men regardless of the level of commitment. I was never in a push pull relationship until 4-5 years ago. My dad dies and I have held on to dear life to someone who ticks off all the checks on the list of traits my daddy had. Like my dad did, he can't contact me. I can't stop. Seeing him less helps me to be in a less addictive relationship. Being in my 60's, I rarely think of dad. I am fiercely independent and although I have recovered from the abandonment issues, I find it very uncomfortable to be having daddy issues at this stage in my life YUCK.

I had no intention about making this thread about me. I am really confused about how people don't seem to express that they miss each other as if that places you in the needy box right away. That is why I wanted to hear how everyone is doing out there and I have not been dissappointed by the response. Doesn't matter if the question was not clear..it got us thinking ....

As a child, I had to get use to the fact that both my parents were unavailable. I don't bear a grudge. I know that I am going to have to make better paths in the snow. I know how hard it will be. When heading towards a life of retirement, the only thing I know is joy matters. Focus on the solutions. I don't live in a place where people see each other that much so maybe travel might be an option. This thread and all its content has been triggering, touching and exciting. Did you ever wonder why you keep meeting the same type or keep having the same thing happen to you? That haunting quote about that which we resist continues to persist seems true to me.

It used to tear me apart, when my ex never texted me that he missed me. If I asked him, he would say that he had missed me, but I had to ask him. Over a period of 2,4 years he only mentioned it twice on his own. I guess it was his way of keeping a distance. Telling me that he missed me, would get my hopes up that he was ready for a relationship. It felt like a power game...who contacts who first.

 

[Gs172003]

It used to tear me apart, when my ex never texted me that he missed me. If I asked him, he would say that he had missed me, but I had to ask him. Over a period of 2,4 years he only mentioned it twice on his own. I guess it was his way of keeping a distance. Telling me that he missed me, would get my hopes up that he was ready for a relationship. It felt like a power game...who contacts who first.

Was this while you were with him or when you all were broke up?

 

[Butterfly64]

Was this while you were with him or when you all were broke up?

When we were together. I am still on this Forum because it helps me to move on. It reminds me that if I go back to him, he will still avoid intimacy....he will be torn between wanting it to work out and running away.

 

[candor]

@TruthSeeker, Butterfly I could have written these posts myself ... Same thoughts and wordings. In fact, I keep wondering if regardless of the reasons why he won't/can't do the initial contacting if he seems genuinely grateful that I do is that enough? And if I never hear an "I miss you", is that the end of the world? The weeks and months of silence if I do nothing use to be killers. This typically happened after the perfect date. What has changed for me is the expectations. Now comes the questions. Am I being abused, manipulated, controlled? Am I obsessed, addicted, insane? But the focus is on me now. Two years ago, it was all him. He says and he does. Now I can work with my T on me. Do I need someone to call and miss me? Do I maybe just want it? I miss me. I need to believe that I am capable of attracting the right people. I am willing to change and it's already beginning.