Does anyone find that the mindfulness techniques worsens their PTSD symptoms?

[flowerapple]

Hi all. I don’t know if it’s just with me, but I find that whenever I try to practice the mindfulness and meditation techniques, I only feel worse. I can never complete it because of that. If I’m doing it just to practice it, I begin to feel physically sick, with nausea, dry heaving, chest heaviness, and start to feel sleepy or zoned out, like I’m going to dissociate soon. If I’m doing it to get grounded because I’m having a panic attack or flashback or about to have it, then it just makes me feel even worse. I find that it’s not only no help for me, but it actually worsens my symptoms. I end up feeling more like the abuse is happening.

I don’t know if I’m just weird though or not doing it right or something because everyone seems to believe that it works and it makes you feel better. My psychiatrist and all the Ts I have and my current T keep suggesting it, and asking if I’ve done it, or if I’m still doing it. They constantly remind me to do it. When I tell them that I tried it but it made me feel worse so I stopped, they all think that I’m either lying about having done it, or not doing it right, and that I don’t really want to get better. Now I just tell them I do it, even though I know I don’t, but I just can’t bother with having that whole conversation of why I’m here in therapy all over again.

I have a new T again now, and she asked me if I knew anything about mindfulness. I told her yes so she asked if I practiced it. I told her the truth that I didn’t just to see what would happen. She asked me why and I told her it made me feel worse. And then she asked me to describe what I would feel, and I did. None of my or previous Ts ever asked me to do that so I never knew that was something to talk about, and I’m not trying to say they aren’t good or anything. My current T said that the reason it makes me feel worse and even more “involved” in the past may be related to how I coped while it was happening. I’m not too sure what she meant though because she ended the session and I don’t see her for another two weeks because she’s away.

So I was just wondering if anyone had similar reactions when practicing mindfulness, and if so, do you know why? Sorry for the long post, I don’t know why but I felt I had to explain the whole thing before I could ask this. Thanks.

 

[Rumors]

It's more of the body scans and things that make me focus on my body. For me, being/feeling out of control means bad things happen. Not a good place for me... it's an irrational child like point of view but I sometimes can't help it.

 

[Teamwork]

You have to go slow. Do one aspect to start. So I literally just listened to my t’s recording of the relaxation technique on his website. He has tons of meditation on his site. The ones that start with a tone, set me off so I don’t listen. I liked the body scan one, but again since I started slow and just listened to my t do the relaxation one, I was able to just listen to the other guy do the body scan. Trust me I spent months just laying on my bed listening.
Then I did try to just find my breathe and pay attention to it. Eventually I could learn to find it and take a deep breathe. I do recall the very first time, since I’m pretty compliant, when my t gave me a meditation cd, I went straight home and tried it out and had a meltdown really quick. Ended up calling him. He helped me out a lot. Like you only do what you can, some responses are normal. Some are part of our issue so those aspects are not for us. What worked for me after a year of trying bits and pieces of it was that I saw an advert for a spire stone. It records my breathing and tells me when I’m tense and guides me through the breathing exercises. Sends me a weekly report. After 3 years my reports are mostly calm. I can also send it to my t. It vibrates when I’ve entered into tense breathing for 2 minutes.

 

[Mach123]

All it means to me now is remembering what these feelings are and that they are not really about what's going on in front of me.

Also that I'm usually misinterpreting what is going on in a bad way meaning just because this person is feeling like a threat but is it anything to do with me. Am I projecting that.

It sounds like I have to remember that but I don't and I do it after too like when something gets by me. I don't gnash about it as much. I just realize what happened and I don't go all punishment on me because I couldn't stop it.

I never looked up mindfulness really I just thought it meant this, like paying attention. I do a meditation also but it's not exactly the same.

 

[Sideways]

“Mindfulness”, essentially just a state of awareness.

Like has been suggested above, we can practice mindfulness (being aware) of all sorts of things: easy stuff, (like the objects in the room I’m in), to more complex stuff (like the thoughts that are whizzing through my head), to downright confronting and scary stuff (like, what sensations can I notice in my body right now).

Trauma specialist T’s will often be aware of how confronting a state of mindfulness can be for a person with ptsd. Because ‘avoidance’ (like actively not thinking about stuff) and dissociation (essentially the exact opposite of mindfulness) are part of the pathology of ptsd.

So, when a person that has ptsd starts practicing mindfulness, it’s a bit like asking them to confront stuff that our brains have decided to actively avoid (as a maladaptive coping strategy). And yeah, that’s uncomfortable. And overdone too quickly? Incredibly distressing.

Doesn’t make it unhelpful. Your T’s are batting on about it because it’s a non-invasive (ie. doesn’t involve medical procedures or even medication) technique that loads of evidence suggests will help alleviate some of your symptoms long term. There’s evidence it will ultimately be helpful for you, and alleviate some of your distress.

Long term.

But like any seriously confronting skill? Start small. Practice with stuff that isn’t confronting. Sounds odd, but practicing being consciously aware of things (rather than chronically dissociated) can be crazy helpful as we get better at it.

But you have ptsd. One of the core symptom clusters of having ptsd is avoidance. And for many of us, high levels of dissociation are part of the package as well. Taking on those symptoms is worthwhile, but usually only manageable if we take it slowly.

 

[hithere]

Yes I definietly experienced this. So I just stopped doing it for a time. I needed my nervous system to calm down. It did not help with a ramped up nervous system, in fact, it would make things worse. Really worse. I think for me it was the "safe" feeling was just not there. I feel a lot safer today.

 

[blackemerald1]

Hi @flowerapple - I can see why this would be so frustrating. It's a little like everyone telling me to do yoga. I hate it, I don't reach any type of relaxation within from doing it and when I do it as part of a class... I have to sit there and be bored with my head spinning around with a million thoughts and one of them being how can I leave right now! Because I'm not getting it at all but I don't want everyone else to know I am no good at this yoga thing.

Have any of these T's walked you through the process of being mindful? Maybe you could spring that back your T. Give him a scenario where you have been feeling overwhelmed and ask him to help to guide you.

Maybe you are expecting too much too soon? I'm not sure if you are. I think there are levels of mindfulness and it depends on what you want or need to achieve.

I agree with @Mach123 - for me when I'm feeling like mindfulness might be helpful...which I admit, for me probably should be all of the time! It's not about reaching some kind of zen moment because invariably I'm too busy to do that and I'll admit I've never found a zen moment. Like my attempts at doing yoga. :sorry:

Rather, for me, and I'm not saying this is correct or appropriate for you or everyone, it's just about bringing myself back to whatever I am doing right there and then. Concentrating and relaxing within that moment to do just one thing at a time and not let my head race ahead without me or run off with intrusive, obsessive unrelated thoughts. That could be whilst I'm cleaning, packing to go away, driving, cooking dinner even watching a movie. I'm not good at explaining it but when I pull up and think I need to handle this much better... being mindful does help and sometimes only very light redirection back to what I'm doing.

I cannot do EMDR because it makes me nauseous and lose the feeling in my legs. So obviously I don't do that anymore. I wonder if you are trying to push yourself too far, too fast and too deeply?

I think it's a good tool if you can use it however if you cannot there are other things you can practice to help alleviate symptoms.

It would be really good if you could tell your T that you are having difficulty practicing it because it might help him understand the levels of distress you are experiencing.

Good luck and well done to you for trying.

 

[Sideways]

It's not about reaching some kind of zen moment because invariably I'm too busy to do that and I'll admit I've never found a zen moment. Like my attempts at doing yoga.

Yeah, the old Monkey Mind dude. Notice yourself taking 3 deep breaths in and out while you’re waiting at traffic lights. Well done - you just practiced some mindfulness!

Totally relate to all of this. Some people seem to reach nirvana with stuff like mindfulness and yoga. Like, what!?

Yoga taught me how to breathe properly.
Mindfulness taught me how to notice whether I was breathing.

End result? I can now breathe my way out of a panic attack in pretty much any situation.

Which is a long way from reaching nirvana, but still incredibly helpful!

 

[blackemerald1]

Yoga taught me how to breathe properly.
Mindfulness taught me how to notice whether I was breathing.

End result? I can now breathe my way out of a panic attack in pretty much any situation.

^Absolutely. That is me too. That first big slow breath that I take has become the key for me to reset myself and divert away from panic. It is such a relief to have this tool. Reminding myself to use it escapes me at times though.

Which is a long way from reaching nirvana,

^I know! Does anyone have a map to this place? lol I need to take a holiday there. :cautious::sorry:

My current T said that the reason it makes me feel worse and even more “involved” in the past may be related to how I coped while it was happening. I

^I'm not sure either. Could she have meant the freeze, flight, fight, fawn response that you may have experienced whilst the trauma was happening?

For instance with me there was a fight response... so the various physical and mental processes that my body was activated to do at that time... revisit me over and over and in the most impractical, inappropriate and at times nonsensical moments. That damages me over and over. That's part of my ptsd.

So I've become aware of that response starting to happen, the triggers that are likely to make it start (sometimes) and that's where I can use mindfulness to intervene. But only if I recognise it coming. I'm not sure but do you think that was what she meant? Does it fit in with your frustration and feelings whilst practicing mindfulness?

 

[Cypress]

I am not an expert on Buddhism but I am going to express my annoyance at how certain traditions have been adapted in an effort to address psychological conditions in the West.

Most of this mindfulness theory is a Westernized version of Vipassana, a practice found within Theravada Buddhism. It emphasizes three things that I think are difficult for PTSDers: breathing, eyes closed meditation and the body scan. All of this can lead you into a dysphoric trance rather than awareness. I also found it unbearable and triggering when I first began to meditate.

On the other hand, Zen buddhism comes from the Mahayana tradition. This type of meditation is done with the eyes open where one stares at a fixed point and focuses completely on everything around you that your senses can detect: traffic sounds outside, the pain in your knee, the smell of fish from the apartment next door. There are no requirements to breathe or scan or chant. You just sit.

I think this type of practice is much less triggering for us: your eyes are open so less feeling of vulnerability, no breathing so you don't get anxious and no body scan so no bad memories crashing in.

When I get triggered now, I find a spot on the wall/ground and start spreading my awareness to all of the details around me. It really helps me reset my sense of reality.

But that's just my 2 cents, I think many have found Vipassana mindfulness very helpful. When I was living in India they were teaching it in the prisons to good effect.

 

[blackemerald1]

Wow @Cypress - I'm impressed with your knowledge of the traditional origins of this practice. (I mean that sincerely btw).

For me, cherry picking what works is the best I can achieve. Maybe I am inadvertently avoiding or denying myself a better experience.

 

[Friday]

It’s a really bad idea with my other disorder (ADHD)

Spoiler: And here’s why

because half of coping with that disorder is accomplished by ignoring as much as possible, at nearly all times. (There’s far too much information flooding in. Daily life is rather like attempting to have a conversation with 3 different people on 3 different devices in 3 different languages, whilst reading a book, whilst dancing at a rock concert on stage set to choreography to keep the dancers from being set on fire by the pyrotechnics, whilst being responsible for 30 screaming kids. Okay WHICH of those things do you actually pay attention to, in what order? All of those things are equally -if differently- important, so how do you accomplish ALL of them, at the same time, without being distracted by any single ONE of them / dropping the ball on the others?). Meanwhile? The flip side of hypofocus (distraction caused by too much information streaming in) is hyperfocus (a kind of disassociation blurs out everything else except what you’re focused on. Including things like needing to pee, time of day, sounds up to and including fire alarms, etc.). So there’s a whole lot of give/take as one has to balance paying attention to only certain things, instead of everything or one thing. (People SAY to only focus on one thing :rolleyes: but they don’t actually mean it. Because they are actually able to pay attention to things like needing to pee, someone knocking on a door, etc.). ADHD brains are quite extremist in their operation... paying attention to everything or nothing.

Mindfulness, as taught to the teeming masses? f*cks ADHD with a sandpaper condom. Because it either opens the floodgates of too much info (Meltdown! Meltdown!) or kicks up hyperfocus and the rest of the world falls away for no good reason (disassociation in ADHD is -usually- a good thing -a break from overactive senses- but having it kick on win nothing of real value being focused on? Is a recipe for disaster.

Now... in the PTSD / ADHD dogfight? PTSD is the big dog. Those symptoms “win”. But both disorders often feed into each other. So what happens if ADHD meets mindfulness when my PTSD is symptomatic? I have yet to lose less than half a day to flashbacks/panic attacks (hyperfocus with nothing to focus on, will choose whatever is shiny, including the PTSD symptom I’m trying to moderate)... and have lost as much as 3 weeks.

It’s seriously bad juju.

Less dysregulation and more decompensating level of “We’re f*cked”.