Sensitive topic: understanding suicide and aftermath

[grit]

I am aiming for intellectual discussion.

Of course emotional, experiences, and any other approach is fine but I am posting this for intellectual conversation of understanding suicide and life after the experience of attempting one. So if you recover from attempting one and have reached a phase where you feel comfortable talking about it, I thank you in advance of your input and feedback.

I am realizing in my own journey and the experiences I survived as a child of abuse, the only reason (that I am conscious of today) that I did not attempt suicide wholeheartedly in my younger days is that I had unbelievable amount of gratitude to fill my deep, gaping, hole of emptiness. When I was a teenager, I had ideation of suicide, sort of like fantasies, like what if I just die, or what if I punch my belly and bleed to die...and what others would have said about me (sort of looking for revenge on my mother)...sort of like daydreaming of hurting myself would hurt my mother's reputation the only recourse I could inflict pain on her. But yet I never practiced self harm or attempted suicide but the thinking of it gave me so much satisfaction almost.

Now in my life, and that I am sort of waking up a bit from the bondage of ptsd, I am wondering what exactly protected me from attempting suicide. I am trying to open up about this so others can share their recovery story of gratitude and holding themselves in that space of choosing not to die. What hold you up?

As for me, I feel my dissociation was so deep that it blinded me to even feel anything at all except that hole in my stomach. It would start to open and try to swallow me starting on Friday night (after a week's work) and I would try to hold it all weekend alone, crying, and resisting to take my life, and all of sudden, I would feel this feeling (one feeling) of recognizing my own pain and struggle and I would just be so grateful I am not dead but at least can feel my deep, sucking, gnawing hole of emptiness and right at that minute, I would be filled with a new energy and hope for tomorrow. Tomorrow so happened to be Monday - another day's work. But at the time, I was not equipped or experienced in therapy to know the language of what just happened. A weekend after a weekend, I would just be alone holding and praying and same thing and same result (not every weekend but enough that I remember these vividly now both in mind and body).

I have had many (too much to count) of those weekends in most of my adulthood and thought (incredibly) that was normal for anyone in similar situation.

Why this topic now?

I have a guy in my group therapy that has unbelievable amount of gratitude. I am shocked to see how much he can hold even though he lost his marriage and job around covid-19 and yet he is so grateful to have his body/mind and this moment. At first, I felt judging him and thinking he is so dissociated but I am starting to be affected by him and remember my own gratitude in times of extreme darkness and how that hold me up.

I feel so much empathy and really sympathy toward him now and almost feel like coming out to my own history of living through suicidal fogs for so long and yet never taking the bait but having a tiny space where gratitude filled (maybe the word gratitude is not the right word)...maybe no language can truly be able to describe sitting on the edge of death and choosing life or at least postponing the deed for another weekend.

I am just curious and deeply grateful to learn from others how did they pass that moment and came to understand. I know this is deeply personal and deeply painful to revisit so if you take a moment to comment, I am deeply appreciative. It was not easy for me to post this either but even posting it is making my experience more experiential and digestible and integrative but I am not underestimating the amount of pain this caused me over the years.

ps. I want to, in advance, apologize if some of my language are incorrect, invalidating or insensitive. It is not my intention but again I am limited by my own ignorance and limitation of my own vocabulary.

Thank you.
Grit

 

[Ronin]

I attempted suicide for so many different reasons my own depression / PTSD and such take on mental health doesn't even cut it.

Often it wasn't about me so much.
But honor, preserving it, and protecting others.

Acknowledging I'm insignificant.
They matter.
The operation matters.
Their families safe matter.

The like.
So the automatic presumption it must have been mental health and about me is gonna leave me, many times, just doing what I have then.

Chuckle, shake head, and smile with a 'Sure.'

As to what held me up?
Someone or something persuading me as admirable a dedication, that sacrifice can wait for some better for it time. ;)

Not stealing my mission.
But not making it one to follow through.

 

[grit]

thanks @Ronin
I think that is it...sometimes it really does come to "protecting others"

But honor, preserving it, and protecting others.

Acknowledging I'm insignificant.
They matter.
The operation matters.
Their families safe matter.

It is interesting to note you were protecting others (that is extreme altruism itself), when mine I was thinking of hurting my mother with my own death.

(edit) on a second thought another good reason not to judge others who are not here with us for this exact topic.

 

[Ronin]

I can understand that reasoning.

My biological mother would be glad for me gone and made it very tried / clear, so hurting her was never on the table, more like surviving that bitch...

And a person that's very MyMother and those like her are all women it guts me to hurt, even a little - and who it hurt I was about to leave then, too. Because I know for sure we already lost sooo many years we will never get back... and need every stupid joke and every little smile at all things we missed out on we can get.

 

[grit]

@Ronin

This is hypothetical question (pure speculation) but would you say those trying to "protect others" are more likely to succeed committing suicide versus those like me who want to hurt others with the suicide? It seems to me the first will be more sensitive than the latter...just the reaction to the trauma or the situation seems that way. looks the first is for protecting others by harming self and the latter is for harming others and protecting self (oxymoron cause by death no one is protected) I know I am splitting hair here...

I feel like I could not go on cause the amount of hate I had for my mother, maybe deep inside I wanted to torture her by being alive than dead...(Maybe this was a deep fantasy just coming to the surface)...not that I acted on it or anything (or not that I need to justify or anything)...(hard to take feelings so seriously sometimes) (-:

 

[Tinyflame]

I think that is it...sometimes it really does come to "protecting others"

I think this ^^ can be true or a cognitive distortion.

I think it is illogical to kill one's self to harm another.

I don't think there's a blanket approach to presuming what anyone feels before, during or after a suicide attempt. Except to say research (Thomas Joiner, etc) say an overlap of lack of ability to cope (resources), lack of purpose, and reduced fear (high level of pain tolerance, often conditioned). In contrast, support etc are protective factors. The majority of people (over 80, perhaps closer to 90%) are thought to have mental illness, depression being one of the obvious ones.

I think a person knows if they are emotionally disregulated, or (vs) intent on planning successfully. Many who 'succeed', likely were very committed to ensuring it would work. Sometimes it doesn't, sometimes interrupted or providence. Sometimes something acts as a 'wedge', or buys time to think, get help, +/ or get medicated. If it can buy enough time to work through it there's that.

I think it can lead to greater gratitude. Personally I think I'm more grateful when others survive or are there (in general), than just re: myself. I think that showed me the fragility of life and what not to take for granted more than SI has. SI is removed from feeling connected to life in that way.

I have never recalled such a motivation (personally) ever over anger. Or in any way to 'affect' anyone else. But that's just me.

ETA, I would say post I felt shame, like damaged goods, nuts, have physical damage. Told no one, except decades later and because required in a way, far as honesty went. Have had help post by being honest. Only had it occur when it resurfaced years later/ situation. Felt indifferent about it, mind seemed to make up on it's own/ no emotion about it. Am grateful I did not succeed originally, so as not to cause pain for others/ parent.

 

[grit]

@Tinyflame
Thank you for the reference to Thomas Joiner (I am not familiar with him but appreciate and will look up).

The main reason I prefaced this post with intellectual discussion is precisely to avoid arguments and feelings being hurt. Every post, every opinion, every feeling is welcome.

As one being illogical or cognitive distortion - yes 100% for me. For me to think I wanted to attempt suicide so I could tarnish my mother's reputation - the only thing going for her - as a narcissistic person who cared deeply how she was perceived was obviously a thought of a dark place - beyond any cognition but thank goodness I also did not succeeded in that trail of thought at those times. So yes dsyregulated, unable to cope, and depression (maybe not all at once hence, I may not have been here today) but variation of those yes for sure. From my memory of it as a teen, that ability to hurt my mother was real and satisfactory at the time - I guess that is a good sign how deep I was traumatized and hurt by her to come only by retaliation is what my life was worth it at the time.

While I am writing this I recalled one time my sister telling me her husband told her he would kill himself if she left him....so I guess one may wonder hmmm was he trying to hurt my sister by harming himself? It makes no sense. Hence the topic. nothing make sense.

But I thank you for expanding the window of discussion.
[edit] noticed your edit. Thank you for sharing. I think that is the issue we may not have understanding during the act or thinking of the act but afterwards, how we narrate is also useful I think and that is what I am trying to understand myself and others so I can enrich my empathy and understanding of this topic. It is such a taboo one and hard to ever discuss it with others in real life.

 

[Tinyflame]

Oh I'm sorry @grit , if you thought it caused hurt feeling, no it doesn't, nor did I mean it in argument. Also, I editted/ added. Perhaps I misunderstood the question, or misread the supposition? :confused:

Thomas Joiner is a famous suicidologist.

I think, for example, your sister's H's behaviour, that is emotional blackmail, and he may or may not have been serious. But even saying such things is not, at the very least, a sign of good mental health. It is also a threat, and threats should be treated as threats, regardless.

I don't think it's as confusing a subject, if it's broken down a bit: for example, it's conjectured some SI is an issue of pride or consequence, Hitler's action being an example often cited. But that is extremely different from someone who feels they are a burden; different again from someone's action's being thought to be honorable, or in someone else's place/ for their protection; different again with extremist groups; vs post partum depression; or mental illnesses of all types, which might or might not include psychosis; ED's; or even giving up, completely (terminally or chronically ill, etc). The highest group with suicide are senior citizens.

 

[Freida]

I was (ok -am :laugh:) the queen of dissociation. If I hadn't been able to do that I'm pretty sure I would have pulled the trigger long ago. But when I'm dissociated it made it easier to list good things vs bad as reasons to live. However that isn't always a good thing because it comes with a ton of guilt for not being grateful for what I have and fussing about what I don't - which can make the SI worse.

As for suicide - I'm a "sudden risk". Not sure if that's the actual term but it means someone who commits suicide on the spur of the moment. No planning, no thinking, no notes. Just here one second and gone the next. It's not about hurting or saving others - it's about reaching a point where you just cant go on anymore and ending it. It happens more than people realize and according to my T it is really hard to treat because she gets very little notice that the person is on the edge. She will ask me if I'm safe and I can say yes and truly mean it - but it only applies to that moment. She has been working with me for ages to try to anticipate when it is coming and think it out before I do something stupid.

 

[grit]

ohh no I did not think this hurt your feelings at all. I was just maybe emphasizing that this is intellectual discussion thing. your last comment of breaking down the topic is exactly and precisely what I wanted to converse about. You put it out there perfect.

I think we have a lot to learn about suicide from those who came very close to and survived and are able to talk about it without becoming dysregulated (take some time from the experience and talking about it in a factual and story way rather than painful and re-living way).

I really appreciate @Tinyflame the knowledge you are providing to me to not only take it as educational but also use it as a way to make sense of my own shame over the years of not being able to verbalize my experience as what it truly was.

 

[Ronin]

@Ronin

This is hypothetical question (pure speculation) but would you say those trying to "protect others" are more likely to succeed committing suicide versus those like me who want to hurt others with the suicide?

It seems to me the first will be more sensitive than the latter...just the reaction to the trauma or the situation seems that way.

Non hypothetical answer - I cannot speak for others. ;) It's as simple as that.

And that sensitivity line went bit way over my head, as in not applicable. Of people I know that would reach to those measures to protect others these sensitivity issues and emotionality around them were *not* the issues on which people would be basing decisions. At all.

 

[grit]

I was (ok -am :laugh:) the queen of dissociation. If I hadn't been able to do that I'm pretty sure I would have pulled the trigger long ago. But when I'm dissociated it made it easier to list good things vs bad as reasons to live. However that isn't always a good thing because it comes with a ton of guilt for not being grateful for what I have and fussing about what I don't - which can make the SI worse.

As for suicide - I'm a "sudden risk". Not sure if that's the actual term but it means someone who commits suicide on the spur of the moment. No planning, no thinking, no notes. Just here one second and gone the next. It's not about hurting or saving others - it's about reaching a point where you just cant go on anymore and ending it. It happens more than people realize and according to my T it is really hard to treat because she gets very little notice that the person is on the edge. She will ask me if I'm safe and I can say yes and truly mean it - but it only applies to that moment. She has been working with me for ages to try to anticipate when it is coming and think it out before I do something stupid.

Thanks @Freida

you just added another wrinkle to this already convoluted topic. "Sudden risk" without any pattern of thoughts except any moment can be it will be hard to treat. I think this is the type we hear often that there was no sign of that person ever committing suicide and this or that and then it happens.

I also want to make clear that I never had thoughts at least not consciously as I am writing them here when I had ideations. I am re-writing my past as I know myself today. When I was a teenager or younger adult (binging on suicide thoughts) my only feelings were deep emptiness and lack of self awareness. I had none of the thoughts I am sharing here today. These all to make sense of then.