Shame - Help

[mamachick]

Soooo true

 

[KP the nut]

Funny how we're harder on ourselves than anyone else is.:rolleyes:

I had a session with my T. He said you are incredibly hard on yourself. He asked me what my reaction would be if one of my girls came to me and said similar stuff about being ashamed and worthless. He asked would I tell them they were unworthy. I reacted as a Mum and said no of course not, as big as they are I'd sit them on my knee, hold them and tell them they were safe and it was OK. T just looked at me and asked, so why do you deserve less?

T was a genius.

 

[maddog]

T and I have these conversations all the time. He has long since given up trying to make any ground by asking me how I think I should have been treated, or what gentle and supportive messages I should give to myself in certain circumstances etc, because I never have anything to say and absolutely no idea how to respond. But the moment he asks me what I would say to anyone else who had experienced what I have, or how I would guide or respond to a friend or colleague experiencing the relevant experience, I have all the answers.

I don't understand how that information and advice and rationality can be there and so readily accessible, yet completely foreign to me when it is myself in the hotseat.

Interesting that so many of us are so good at supporting and nurturing others at the expense of our own self care and positive self talk. And knowing this fact is a long long way away from being able to do something about it.

Maddog

 

[kimberley dawn]

I don't understand how that information and advice and rationality can be there and so readily accessible, yet completely foreign to me when it is myself in the hotseat.

I've thought about the exact same thing for years, and the answer I give myself is the emotions behind the memory. That's the one to conquere not the action / reaction. Like trying to make me understand that baked bread straight out of the oven smells like crap?? .... But I can understand how others might not like the smell. But the feelings the smell or memory gives me......

So we can understand that what we went thru would have been destroying for others, but we remember how we felt. A childs feeling, yes, but we interprit it as adults b/c it's our own feelings.

Does this come out right? Don't know if I managed to explane what I meen here but...

 

[Srain]

I understand that and at the same time what works more for me is thinking of would I act like that to a child or another person?? The answer is a resounding "NO". That gets me thinking. Would I do that to a child???

Eat0429, would you, if you were a Supervisor, upon finding out that one of your workers had PTSD, treat them any different such as was done to you then snub them in front of the rest of the workers? Would you treat them like you have been treated or would you find out what is going on and then explain that although they have this condition and you understand you will be treating them like anyother worker with the understanding there will be times when work will be more challenging??

This is how I look at things. Would I treat my child this way would I treat myself this way, no! I would expect fair treatment with the understanding I may need some time out.

I hope this is making sense.

 

[Kb3]

I would expect fair treatment with the understanding I may need some time out.

Well said Rain. I've come around to thinking that way about a lot of stuff in my life and have slowly started to erase the shame that has kept me from treating myself fairly and kindly. I've had to do it one bit at a time.

It has meant facing down a lot of false ideas I had forced on me or had developed on my own in response to weird environments. I've been coming around to the idea that I, and everyone else is human and can only act as a humans would.

In answer to your question above I would cut the worker some slack - but that is now. Not that long ago, out of ignorance, I might not have. I'm not happy that I have PTSD, but I am happy that it has taught me (in the cruelest way possible) to be a good person.

 

[maddog]

Eat, I think this is one of the true and few blessings of PTSD. I think it teaches us a depth of empathy for others' experiences and suffering that we would be unlikely to gain otherwise. I actually believe that of adversity generally - those who have not experienced it cannot ever truly empathise with it. It reminds me of a quote from Judith Herman's "Trauma and Recovery" which I am reading at the moment. In relation to the prevalence of childhood and sexual abuse, the book states that "only the fortunate find it unusual".

So true.

And Kimberley, I liked your bread analogy above - very true and makes lots of sense to me.

Maddog

 

[Kb3]

Over time I have come to believe that it was a nightmare brought on by over medication. Although I have to say, denial of the thought that this could have actually happened is necessary as I could do nothing and had no support from my husband. He even thought I was sick for thinking such a thing. I honestly have no idea if it happened or was dream.

Brat I just wanted to send you more ((((((hugs)))))) for this part of what you wrote me. I was in this limbo land with what happened to me for quite awhile until enough evidence stacked up to confirm my worst suspicions. My husband also didn't believe me for a period of time either and that could have really driven us apart if I had let it.

I just wanted to say that I have read about people getting PTSD from the hallucinations that they had when they were patients in the ICU and now some nursing staff will keep a diary of the patient's time there so that they can read about what happened while they were incapacitated. The drugs cause such powerful hallucinations that they continue to haunt people long after they have recovered, which is so tragic.

I don't know if that helps you or not, but I do feel tremendous sorrow that you have lived with that horrible thought since then and hope that you are able to find some peace with it.

 

[Kb3]

I think it teaches us a depth of empathy for others' experiences and suffering that we would be unlikely to gain otherwise.

Ditto.:). It has actually made me much more of the person I want to be. Too bad I couldn't have done it without all the horror, but I'll never regret this aspect of it.

 

[mamachick]

Eat-thank you so much for your compassion. I understand that for those who have not had such an experience, it sounds rather insane, to truly not be able to seperate the reality from imaginary, and know that the effect of the experience is the same. I am so glad that your husband was responsive-that is a huge blessing. My husband was employed at the hospital where this occurred and his only concern was for me to "shut up" about it.

I always knew that I was not that unique, and somebody has had a similiar experience. I am a believer that there are times when the truth does set us free. Once we accept that something has happened, we can begin to really heal

 

[Hashi]

I know that they carry much, if not all, of the blame, but I feel like that if I wasn't such a craven, flawed human being that I wouldn't have acted this way to begin with. .

No, if they were not such flawed human beings you wouldn't be feeling this way now.

I agree with kimberley dawn that their behaviour was bullying. Like you and other people here I've come round in hospital and done weird stuff, but also I've been bullied (in a different situation) and I know that someone has to be insecure and lacking in self-esteem to make them deliberately shame someone else. No-one who feels good about themselves would do that.

Their shame is actually double - they shamed themselves by acting that way, but also they were carrying shame to begin with to make them act that way. They were trying to transfer that to you to make themselves feel better. That's what bullies do.

I would try to think - for you that was one incident where unfortunately your path crossed with them. For them, they spend their whole time disrespecting themselves and their professional worth.

 

[Kb3]

Their shame is actually double - they shamed themselves by acting that way, but also they were carrying shame to begin with to make them act that way. They were trying to transfer that to you to make themselves feel better. That's what bullies do.

I would try to think - for you that was one incident where unfortunately your path crossed with them. For them, they spend their whole time disrespecting themselves and their professional worth.

Thanks Hashi for putting it this way. It's also been hard for me to put this experience in the proper perspective because of the power imbalance that exists in these situations. Even though I know in my heart that they were in the wrong, it has been hard for me to accept that I have been treated this way by people who have so much more status than I do (at the hospital anyway!)

It goes back to childhood for me, the feeling that if an authority figure hurts or rejects me, that I am in the wrong, and have done something to have deserved that rejection. The whole experience just fed right into that old belief system, and has been stuck there until now.

I have been bullied badly in a work environment and know what that is like, but it really took me completely by surprise that it could happen when I was in a surgical situation and completely at their mercy. I actually didn't even want to believe it for a long time because I couldn't I imagine how I would be able to trust medical personnel again, but it's probably best for me to believe what you said about looking at it as a one-off. Wrong people, wrong day.

Thanks for writing.:).