Worried About New View Of Dissociation.

[Meadowsweet]

My fear is becoming silly about dissoiciation now, and its over a week until I go through it with my therapist. She has asked me to write a bit down about my feelings about my dissociation. And its something (along with statutory tick box evaluation) that we will go through.

I know there is dissociation during my trauma, and I dissociate when I try to write or talk about trauma. And this is what happened during therapy.

But in my re-living, all I managed to get to was the first moment I felt frightened and then I froze. Thats not unusual for me.

But this is an incident that I find disturbing because I can't understand it. There was no definate threat. He didnt say " do as you're told or you will be hurt".

He was acting strange, speaking in a hypnotic type voice. If I stood up and went to make a coffee, he got up and followed me. So I was freaked out and felt threatened. But he never verbally made a threat or physically forced me.

It was one of those situations when I felt that to disagree with anything he wanted would be too much for him, and would spark a bad reaction in him. So I went into role to keep the peace.

I dissociated during the sexual stuff, and I'm ok with that, it makes sense.

But my therapist felt that I may have dissociated as soon as I felt something was wrong in the situation (this is where I dissociated in therapy), and it makes sense of why I was so passive and confused about the sexual side of things later on.

This particular man tried to kill me the next time we met. So I don't think my intuition to do what he wanted was entirely wrong.

But I feel at the moment, if any person showed any sexual interest in me, I would dissociate and not be able to feel my own feelings, and certainly not be able to show them.

That puts me at risk. Thankfully I don't socialise much, so it's unlikely to happen.

But what scares me as well, is that in violent situations, I'm aware that I dissociate, and I'm ok with that. But if my thearapist is right (and sadly it dioes feel right), it means I'm not always aware of the point I dissociate at. In my mind, that feels like there's something I can't control. That scares me.

I just don't know what to make of it at the moment. So any comments are appreciated.

 

[Deleted member 12723]

(((Meadowsweet)))
I heard today in therapy that when we dissociate we go someplace else when we do not feel safe. So it seems to me that safety would be a number 1 priority.

If you could think of ways to be safe, mabe this might help with the need to dissociate. I do not know if this helps. I tend to freeze during trauma too. It was a helpless, powerless, trapped feeling. I did'nt know what else to do. So I played dead until it was all over. I do not understand it.

I took a self defense course called model mugging. It helped me to learn to fight back. But I haven't had any trauma in a long time. Now if something happens that triggers me, I can often go into a rage for self defense.

You have alot going on. Who is this guy that tried to kill you? I am concerned for your safety. I wonder if you have an emergency plan to get out when you first begin to feel threatened. This is not good. I wish I had something better to offer you. I do not understand dissociation. It is a retreat into a place until the trauma is over. But it does not protect.

You need to be self protective. You need some grounding things to do. Well at least you are aware that when you feel threatened you dissociate. This awareness will help you to take the next step.

My heart goes out to you. I hope someone comes along better equipped to advise you. Your safety is the number 1 priority. You need a plan of action that is going to help you out. freezing is not good.

You are a adult now and not a powerless, helpless child. You need to have a plan to fight when you can.How are you at saying no? If you can say no, then you are on your way.

I see that you took care of yourself with the man, when He was following you and you felt threatened.

Oh I hope someone comes along and can assist you better. I feel like a dope. I am trying not to hurt you. I am trying to help. But mabe I do not understand the situation very well.

 

[Meadowsweet]

I appreciate your reply Gizmo.

I don't think I'm in immediate danger of this guy. And I isolate from social situations in general. So the chances of me finding myself in a situation like that are small.

It is a retreat into a place until the trauma is over. But it does not protect.

This is something that scares me.

The other thing that scares me, is that I try to look stuff up on dissociation, and it generally mentions childhood trauma. And my trauma has been from 15, then in multiple ways through adulthood.

 

[intothelight]

Meadowsweet,

Disassociation has such a broad spectrum, and I use to disassociate regularly when I felt fear or was being overwhelmed by emotions. It was "safe" in some way for me, and I only realized I did it when I lost time.

The thing is disassociation can be overcome. This might be something to work on with your T.

Sad thing is, there are times lately that I have missed the ability to disassociate because I am not good at handling the raw emotion. But I guess that is something I will learn too.

Wishing you the best.

Deb

 

[Meadowsweet]

I understand your feelings regarding the desire to dissociate.

I think part of what is scaring me about this new view, is that I dissacociate a lot, but for the most part it is has seemed harmless. And dissociation during trauma seems perfectly understandable.

During sexual incidents in my life, I've felt extremely confused and become passive. But I havn't thought of that as being a form of dissociation. If it is, then my dissociation is putting me in danger.

Then there are other aspects of life and the way I've managed to function that are along that sliding scale of dissociation. Sometimes it's healthy, but sometimes it has put me in danger.

I want to be able to keep the healthy dissociation, but know where the line is. But I think I'm kidding myself that I've ever been that in control.

I'll have to wait and see what my therapist thinks.

Thankyou for the replies, it helps to calm my fears about this.

 

[Abstract]

Hi,

I relate a lot to this in a way.
I have dissociated a lot, I think for most of my life, but I had no real self awareness of it until recently and I am in my forties.

Once I pieced it together I felt much like you. With me it has certainly put me in danger.

The trouble is that anxiety tends to make it more likely that we dissociate if we are in the habit of doing so. So being afraid of dissociation makes it more likely we shall do so. I think the answer is to practice being aware and staying present in general life and that is what will break the pattern. I hope I make sense here.

It might also help you to know that it isn't only those that have experienced trauma that dissociate. There are two distinct types of dissociation. The type you are talking about and that I experience and the type that involves constructive dissociation when divisions occur between the parts of personality. The second type is only related to trauma but the type we are discussing here can also be brought on by anxiety, depression and other things. It is not specific to trauma. If you want to find out more then look up depersonalisation and derealisation.

The other way to look at our type of dissociation is that it is a change in levels of consciousness. It's all a matter of having the appropriate level of consciousness for the situation. We can learn to do that with practice.

Take care.

 

[maddog]

Hi Meadowsweet.

I'm not sure how I first missed this thread when it was topical for you some weeks ago, but I've just read your post, and wanted to reply, because what you wrote was so eerily familiar to me in terms of a recent experience, and I don't think I'd been able to pinpoint exactly what was bothering me about it (aside from the obvious) until I read your post.

Quite simply, I get it, exactly as you said. I recently experienced a prolonged sexual assault by a fellow patient while I was taking part in an in-patient trauma programme, and for various reasons, the incident has contributed to a fairly significant setback I think I am currently experiencing in terms of my overall progress.

I had been chatting to the man in question for some time prior to the assault, firstly in the company of others, and then alone once they had gone. Like you, I was aware that something was just wrong with the interaction and felt profoundly aware that I had to go along with what he said and indicated or else something bad would happen. Yet I felt confused, slow-thinking, uncertain, childlike and terribly, terribly passive. One of the nursing staff even came along and spoke to both of us during this initial period, and I remember vaguely thinking I wanted to say or do something to alert her, but couldn't figure out what or how. She later told me she could sense something was wrong, but ironically, she couldnt' pinpoint what it was either.

As you said, the dissociation I later experienced during the assault makes sense and is unsurprising. But when I came to recount the incident later on to the staff, I found I was unable to account for what had gone on during the initial period and came across sounding confused, inconsistent and largely unaware of what had been going on. Sadly, I think this contributed to why my story was treated with some skepticism... but that's another story.

When I later tried to recount the event to my T, I found I was almost completely unable to engage with it, and ultimately, with his assistance, came to recognize this as the type of dissociation you describe.

Like you, I have evolved to a place of intense fear about how that happened, and what it means for me in terms of my safety in interpersonal situations from hereon in. I recognize that this places me in an enormously vulnerable and powerless position, and that scares me very, very much. It is hard to accept that the abuse that was perpetrated on me during my comparatively defenseless childhood period is now apparently just as achievable now that I am an adult, regardless of how much I try to have learned and changed.

Like you, I socialise infrequently and only with people I know well, but do find myself in public with strangers very often as I commute to and from work etc.

I'm sorry that this has been an anecdote without much in the way of solution or suggestion, but I just wanted to acknowledge that I understand this, and the anxiety and lack of self confidence that it brings.

I know I need to discuss this again with my T, though as with so many dissociative situations, it is extremely difficult to call upon and utilise safety and grounding strategies when you are already outside of the realm of normal self control and awareness.

Maddog

 

[Meadowsweet]

Maddog, it's hardly surprising that this incident has set you back.

I spoke about my feelings to my therapist, and having heard the full story regarding this man there doesn't seem to have been any other way out but to do what he wanted or to have put myself and children at risk. That's something I'm trying to accept. But that means admitting that there was something to fear, and I think fear itself can be more terrifying than dissociation and self-blame.

But I also spoke about my feeling that I don't think I'm able to control dissociation and that it would put me at risk, even if the situation wasn't actually dangerous. She agreed that where I am at the moment, there is a high possibility of that.

But she seems to think that as we go through my traumas one by one, I will become less anxious in those situations, so that will decrease liklihood of dissociation and also we will look at ways I can learn to protect myself in the future.

Strangely it has helped me accept that my self imposed isolation is a genuine self-protective measure rather than a weakness, failure or running away from imaginary fears.

My trauma has been a repeated pattern since I was 15 (I'm nearly 40 now). But I don't have childhood trauma and this was confusing and worrying me too as it would seem that for a pattern to occur in adulthood, it is usually related to childhood. But I've come to the conclusion that I simply don't have any understanding or experience of emotional bonds. I'm fortunate not to have unhealthy emotional bonds in childhood, but I still need to learn what a healthy bond looks and feels like to break the pattern.

 

[Red Feather]

But that means admitting that there was something to fear, and I think fear itself can be more terrifying than dissociation and self-blame.

But I also spoke about my feeling that I don't think I'm able to control dissociation and that it would put me at risk, even if the situation wasn't actually dangerous. She agreed that where I am at the moment, there is a high possibility of that.

I really appreciate this thread. It is helping me become aware of the level of risk involved in dissociation. I know I have put so many aspects of my life and my children's in danger because I was dissociated. I also derealize a lot, and this is same mechanism, but maybe in broader terms. And I think I developed an avoidance mechanism to avoid that moment which would put me in danger. But avoiding things so much that it because hindering to accepting circumstances, also means avoiding life. It means it can put me in a lot of danger because I am just not taking care of myself.

I think that we dissociate when we get triggered or reminded of things. So of course working on the trauma will help with it. Maddog I totally relate to the situation you wrote of. Maybe he triggered you into feeling small and confused. It is just real sad for me because I have lost so many things in my life due to this problem. It makes me feel so vulnerable and so easily manipulated. It's so frightening. I lose trust in myself.

Strangely it has helped me accept that my self imposed isolation is a genuine self-protective measure rather than a weakness, failure or running away from imaginary fears.

This is also so helpful. I remember not wanting to see my ex, because I wasn't well and had been triggered. I didn't know what dissociation was at the time. I just knew that if I saw him, I would be vulnerable in getting hurt and that I had very weak boundaries.

This is also helpful for me to understand the dangers I put myself in performing. I dissociate while I perform and sing, but it leaves me really vulnerable sometimes. And often I am not well afterwards and triggered.

Yeah so I understand not wanting to go out and see people. It is a self protective measure. Thank you so much for sharing this.

 

[Helliepig]

The problem with dissociation is you don't remember the original situation, or all the aspects of it, or all the times you felt terrified. For a child, they soon learn that certain body postures, expressions, people, things, mean that that person is going to hurt you.. your body immediately senses this even when you don't, and you can't clearly see the threat because the concious awareness is the dissociated part - but by that time, you're body has dissociated and you've "gone".

Remembering it can only be done slowly and with therapy. Then, once it's out, you can sense concsiously when someone is bad for you or a situation is threatening.

Until that is clear though, you are, to start with, relativelydefenceless because dissociation stops you assessing the risk, feeling anything.. As you get a bit more aware, the mere fact you feel odd, having sinking feelings, discomfort or aware you are dissociating become enough to alert you that something is not right - but then it takes time to realise that what you feel inside IS your body WARNING you... you're so used to thinking these mucky internal feelngs are just part and parcel of your inadequacy and "stuff".

There is often a bit of a compulsion to stay around people that trigger your dissociation - firstly because when you were little you loved this person, you blamed yourself for the fear and pain and not them, equated this with love or attraction. So ineviably someone who triggers the fear and pain partly seems familiar and comfortable, triggers what you know as "!ove" or "attraction" and you know how to behave around people like that. So even though part of your system is shouting red alert, you are not listening clearly and part of you is attracted... confusing and disorientating.

Also, people who DON'T cause you to dissociate leave you vulnerable to feeling your emptiness, your true self, the biting inadequacies or fear of intimacy so you ACTIVELY choose people who make you disscociate - you get to stay safely away from you ouchy bits.

The thing to REALLY understand about dissociation is it's not a blanket thing: it can be in response so a variety of triggers, it can be little bits here and there, and it can feel different with different "underlying" traumas. It is essentially a life saving tool and not itself the enemy, It stops you being overwhelmed with past trauma and the way to heal it is to heal the past and then it goes.

But the only way to truly understand YOUR brand of dissociation is by going in repeatedly to your trauams and then, slowly you realise the colour and spectrum of when and how you dissociate, and all the little variations on a theme. I think sometimes when T's describe it it can start to seem as it it is THE problem, but it isn't, it's just a symptom of child level defences still being used as an adult. But it is so much more subtle than a lot of people appreciate.

 

[Meadowsweet]

I think part of my problem with accepting my dissociation is that I don't feel I have childhood trauma. So I just feel stupid and like I've failed to learn adult responses.

I think I need to discuss my childhood with someone, to make sense of it.

 

[Red Feather]

I was not hit as a child. I was spanked. Not too often. And I remember being thrown into the closet. But my mother yelled and this was a sustained emotional abuse that happened all my life. There might also be some repressed memories, because sometimes I felt triggered growing up but do not know why.

I agree with Helliepig, there are many ways to dissociate and also many causes of this. I don't think a direct connection can always be made to the cause. I also think that because I meditated a lot, or at least thought I was....something like self-hypnosis, I was unknowingly making it much stronger. But I never forget. I lose time, but it is more like a drifting then a complete switching of conscioussness.

When it comes to concentration issues and the ability to speak when I am under pressure, I think dissociation plays a major role. It is like I just can't access my thoughts. My mind goes blank. Also panic attacks make my dissociations stronger.