How Would You Feel?

[falling]

My bf and I had decided to move in together again and so I just secured a 2 bedroom apt in the bld I'm renting in now. But today my bf told me he's not sure if moving in together right now is such a good idea because he said he feels uncomfortable around me. Uncomfortable because I'm unable to allow him to hug, kiss and touch me. Which is untrue. I am fine with hugs and kisses but I'm not ok with further sexual stuff. Some days I'm better with those things than others. I shy away from more intimate kisses as I don't want to lead him on and get him all worked up and then have to stop when I know he wants more.

I'll admit there is an amount of distance between us in the intimate area as I'm processing many years of sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse and my PTSD. We have had many conversations about my not being able to give to him in that way right now and he's always said he is willing to wait and he has been nothing but supportive to me up until now.

I told him that his saying that to me now is confusing and hurtful as it makes me feel like there's a "time line" in which I will need to get over my intimacy issues or else he's what-not going to take the next steps with our relationship? He said that was not the case it's just that he feels uncomfortable around me and doesn't want to put his house up for rent and move in with me until our relationship is back to a certain level. But just the other day he was saying how we have reached a new level of love and that he's excited to move in with me again.

He said it was because when he was with me last night it was clear I was uncomfortable with him touching my legs and stuff....and I was. I was wearing a night dress and he would rub my thighs and it moved my nightdress up so I would pull it down a lil again so my panties weren't showing. I was not in the mood lets say so that's why I wasn't responding to him as much. But when I explained that to him he said "well why were you wearing a baby-doll then" and "I've seen it all before". It was a simple night dress not a baby-doll. I just walked away from the conversation at that point cause it was so hurtful to hear him say those things to me. I told him to hear him say those kind of things to me while I'm dealing with so much right now was selfish. That I thought he was ok with my inability for closeness right now.

I'm so confused. I thought he was ok with just being my friend right now and take the intimacy day to day until I feel like having sex and stuff. He said he's worried I won't get there. f*ck. It's only bee like 2 weeks or so. He said he was willing to wait forever and would always support me and wanted to marry me and now he's saying he's uncomfortable around me and don't think moving in together is a good idea until we are back to "normal". Meaning what?Until I'm ready to be intimate? How can he tell me just yesterday that he's excited to move in together and today be so negative?

I can't help it if one day I'm ok with more kissing and touching and the next I'm not. f*ck. I wish I could flick a switch and just be over this but I can't. I am super stressed and now I have to worry about our relationship on top of it all. f*cking great. What trust i had with him and our relationship is simply cut back again so easily.

What do I do now? Better question-how would you feel if you were me? Am I being the selfish one? It can't be easy getting mixed signals and getting turned down all the time. And I'm sure it hurts him when I don't want to kiss but I can't help it. I'm depressed. I'm exhausted. A few days ago I was thinking how easy/nice it would be to just go to sleep and never wake up again. The only thing that keeps me going is knowing how much that would negatively effect my daughter and family. And reminding myself about the future I have with him and my daughter.

I really, don't need this right now.

What should I do?How would you feel?

 

[Deleted member 19804]

Dear Falling,
I am very sorry you are going through this right now. But one thing is really very important: you DO NOT have to do anything that doesn't feel 100% right. I'm sure your boyfriend cares about you, but what he's doing now is not at all helpful. What he's doing is guilt-tripping you into having sex with him. That is a horrible abuse of your love. He has to stop doing this immediately.

I know exactly how you feel. I've had to deal with the "are you still not better?!" comments for years already and I have learned that no one has the right to put a timeline on your healing process. I also have sexual abuse related PTSD and I now how hard it is to feel that you're "hurting" your boyfriend by not giving him sex. But that's not what's going on here. Yes, it's probably hard for a healthy man to go without sex for such a long time, but that is nothing compared to the emotional pain you already have to go through every day, let alone if he did something you don't want! Guilt-tripping your partner into sex is rape. No exceptions.

You are very strong for questioning what the man you love is doing and for asking for advice. Hold on to that great inner strength you have. You are a beautiful, wonderful person, no matter what you have been through. The scars on your mind are NOT your fault. You have nothing to feel guilty about. And you deserve to take every single minute you need to get better. If he can't accept that, then he doesn't deserve you.

I wish you the best and hope you will keep trusting on your instincts to make such important decisions. Remember: sex is a very intimate and emotional thing, and it should never be used to achieve any kind of goal except the pleasure of BOTH parties.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

Guys think differently than girls. Since you two are only at the hand holding stage, it's a bit much to think that you're ready to move in together! This is what a guy thinks when a girl moves in with him "oh great, more intimacy, more SEX!"

Get to third base before considering cohabitation, ok?

 

[falling]

We had lived together before. We have been in a relationship for over 3 yrs and have been through all the bases before but I moved out when I started to become depressed again and he was not being supportive-which was about 3 months ago.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

Well NOW you are only at hand holding so NOW you are not ready to cohabitate. Or move in and constantly be dismissing his advances which will breed resentment.

 

[Abstract]

I think there are two sides to this Falling.

The one is that I totally understand your feelings and how it hits those sore spots. I think when that type of trauma is rearing its head and especially when we are doing trauma work then all sorts of things feel like pressure even when they are not meant to be. And all sorts of things can feel like rejection too. And both are very unhelpful and painful.

I don't see anything in what you describe as him trying to pressure you. I think in many ways his response is quite normal even if hurtful and unhelpful to you. Most men see intimacy as showing love when they love someone and even if he has agreed to it on a cognitive level it doesn't mean that it will make it easier on an emotional level. Men also often don't understand that lots of general types of affection and the presence of certain levels of intimacy (like states of undress) dont equate to an invitation. If you can somehow manage it might be worthwhile clearly stating everything that would not be an invitation. So that he doesnt end up confused and hurt and you don't end up feeling pressured and that your trust has been violated. Maybe you could have a code word and that if it is not said then it is a no go area.

I think it is worthwhile considering that the reality of having you so near and yet so far has turned out to be more painful for him than he realised. It doesnt have to be about him changing his mind and rather it might just be to hard and confusing. Sadly just as intimacy and pressure would be damaging to you at present the absence is likely to be painful for him. PTSD is a gem isn't it?

I wonder if a joint T session might be useful.

 

[Nebulustrix]

From my experience, men have a very hard time going in "reverse" - meaning once you reach a certain level of intimacy they don't want you to take it back a notch. Sounds like your boyfriend is going through exactly that - he's used to a certain level of intimacy that you are no longer comfortable with. So, your unwillingness to respond to his advances makes him feel put off and uncomfortable.

That being said - the "then why did you wear a baby-doll" comment set off an alarm in my mind. Anyone associating the way you dress with "asking" for intimacy is very off base and likely to push things farther than you want them to go based on incorrect preconceived notions. It just makes me think of rapists who claim their victims wanted to be raped, all because of the way they were dressed. No way, hosea. Serious turn-off there.

The "now I don't want to live with you" line when he was willing to do so only a couple days ago is also an issue. It is manipulative. He's basically threatening to pull the rug out from underneath you, causing you to feel lost and desperate - willing to do anything to get him to agree to move in with you so you don't lose him and his support altogether. You need to be able to have a sense of security, and he's taking that security away with his fickleness.

If it were me, I would be uncomfortable moving in with him. I know you have history with him, having been with him for three years, but things like that would drive me far, far away. He needs to be sensitive to your needs, and when you express your disinterest in intimacy, he shouldn't be pressuring and guliting you. His behavior is saying "If you don't do what I want (sex), then I'm going to deny you what you want (support)". My personal answer to that kind of behavior? Fine. Don't move in. In fact, don't expect to hear from me anymore at all, because I don't want to be with someone who's love and support is conditional.

Of course - that's just me, and I tend to take things to the extreme. And I have my own difficulties with relationships. I can be definite, forceful, and assertive in my head, but in person.... I have a very hard time actually telling someone "no" or "bug off" or "I'm not interested" etc. So, take my advice for what it's worth. Hope it was helpful.

 

[falling]

Thank you all for taking the time to both read and reply to my post. Quite a mix of replies. Just shows how confusing this really is.

I know exactly how you feel. I've had to deal with the "are you still not better?!" comments for years already and I have learned that no one has the right to put a timeline on your healing process.

I thank you for saying that nobody has the right to put a time line on the healing process but I'm worried that I won't ever be me again no matter how much time I'm given. And knowing that that has a direct impact on how he feels makes me put even more pressure on myself to hurry and get through this. You know?

I also have sexual abuse related PTSD and I know how hard it is to feel that you're "hurting" your boyfriend by not giving him sex.

I'm sorry you to have to experience this too. It really does add so much more pressure when you don't want to hurt others but can't seem not too.

The scars on your mind are NOT your fault.

THANK YOU. Even tho I know this it doesn't seem to matter because I don't know how to get past them. Those ppl won and have been able to take ME away from myself.
I wish you the best too Snowwhite.

Or move in and constantly be dismissing his advances which will breed resentment.

I don't know if moving in with him is a good or bad idea for sure at this point. I value our relationship and I don't want to lose it but I don't want to hurt him or have my reactions or lack of, breed resentment either.

I don't see anything in what you describe as him trying to pressure you. I think in many ways his response is quite normal even if hurtful and unhelpful to you. Most men see intimacy as showing love when they love someone and even if he has agreed to it on a cognitive level it doesn't mean that it will make it easier on an emotional level.

This is impart why I posted this-I am questioning my own judgement on things lately. I am not totally sure if I have perceived the situation correctly. I know I felt like he was pressuring me and in a way saying"if you don't hurry and get over your inability for me to touch, kiss, etc you then I can't be around you(move in with you)." But lately I'm having a hard time knowing if I can trust my feelings or if I am being too sensitive or over reacting....
At the same time I do see things from his point of view and I know it must be hurtful/confusing for him but I told him I would be like this. I was up front about my issues and he said he could deal with it. But now I'm not so sure.

Men also often don't understand that lots of general types of affection and the presence of certain levels of intimacy (like states of undress) dont equate to an invitation.

I don't get this at all. I was only wearing a night dress. And we have had soo many conversations about my inability to be intimate so he knew I wasn't dressing to "invite" him. And the fact that he even brought up what I was wearing made me mad because I do not believe ppl dress to invite any sort of reaction-unless it's obvious. And the fact that he knows all of my history-childhood sexual abuse and rape makes me think that he didn't consider my feelings at all before saying such a thing. Then again he has been very supportive prior to this so???

I think it is worthwhile considering that the reality of having you so near and yet so far has turned out to be more painful for him than he realised. It doesnt have to be about him changing his mind and rather it might just be to hard and confusing. Sadly just as intimacy and pressure would be damaging to you at present the absence is likely to be painful for him. PTSD is a gem isn't it?

Yes, you've hit the nail on the head here. I was worried we may get to this point and am unsure what to do to resolve it. I wonder if I should keep my distance from him until I am ME again?

We have had joint T sessions. In fact he has been to each and every one of my T sessions over the past few months. During those sessions I voiced my concerns that I was worried I wouldn't be giving him enough to keep him happy and wanting to stay with me. And he kept saying that he would be ok.

Anyone associating the way you dress with "asking" for intimacy is very off base and likely to push things farther than you want them to go based on incorrect preconceived notions. It just makes me think of rapists who claim their victims wanted to be raped, all because of the way they were dressed. No way, hosea. Serious turn-off there.

I feel the EXACT same way and I am quite hurt that he said that.

The "now I don't want to live with you" line when he was willing to do so only a couple days ago is also an issue. It is manipulative. He's basically threatening to pull the rug out from underneath you, causing you to feel lost and desperate - willing to do anything to get him to agree to move in with you so you don't lose him and his support altogether.

This is what I felt but I was unsure if my feelings were accurate to the situation.

He needs to be sensitive to your needs, and when you express your disinterest in intimacy, he shouldn't be pressuring and guliting you.

He usually is but I know it can only last so long. I worry that at some point he will reassess what he is getting out of the relationship and realize he needs more. I just didn't think that point would be reached so soon.

Thank you Nebulustrix for your input. You have had very valuable points of view. And for what it's worth I'm sorry we are all struggling with this shit. PTSD and abuse that causes these sort of problems seems to destroy everything valuable.

So what am i going to do from here?I dunno really. But I am sure of one thing. I need to keep my life very structured right now and stay focused on myself and my PTSD/depression. It's not normal to want to go to sleep and never wake up again.

 

[Abstract]

Hi Falling,

I don't share things easily but feel so much for you that I will. I find just talking about these things upsetting. I haven't been able to go anywhere that stuff for years and I don't mean one or two. For at least a couple of years now I haven't been able to even sleep in a bed. I sleep on the sofa.

Not only that but I have not had the courage to tell H about trauma or PTSD. It says a lot that he hasn't sat me down to find out what is going on of course. I don't see things changing in the foreseeable future and just the idea of change is a stressor and sometimes a trigger for me.

I don't want you misunderstand what I meant.. This is NOT your fault and I truly get how unhelpful and painful even the hint of pressure is. Each time I think it sets us back a lot.

Only you can figure out if your H is manipulative or not. I just know for me that when I am triggered or the stuff is coming up that it interferes with the way I perceive people. Particularly peoples motivations.

Back to the dress issue. So that it separates what I meant very clearly - in life dress never ever ever is a message for others to think that certain things are OK.. It never ever is a message to be assaulted or anything else. If we are running naked through town it doesn't give anyone the right to do anything without our permission. If we go out clubbing with a micromini on it means nothing other than that it is micromini and we are going out.

I was just meaning the subtle messages that partners give each other in a committed relationship. I certainly have used dress before in that context. It may not apply to your relationship and situation at all. Certain states of dress may also make it easier on him. You know the context and what happened and your previous conversations.

I am very ashamed to say it (not at all saying this relates to you in any way) but there was a part of me that I found pushing things and seeing if H could have no reaction. I needed no reaction for my trust. Not sure how to explain that. It was a type of testing.

The only way I survive all this is again with radical acceptance. I can't do anything different at present to what I am doing. What will happen will happen. If it comes apart it does. It is a bit different for me as my relationship isnt perfect.

I also think having in mind getting back to who you were is possibly unhelpful in a way. That is how I think for me anyway. I rather think of it as me growing into the person I will be. We as human beings all live and grow.

I think the best is to ask him what his motivations were. Tell him he broke your trust. Find out if it was just touching or if he was thinking of more. Lay down a very clear rule so that there is not chance of misunderstanding if you haven't done that already. I find that sometimes things I take for granted others can't know. They don;t have PTSD.

In general I try to take a step back and think of who the person really is. Separate them from anyone who has harmed me in this way.

 

[Nebulustrix]

He usually is but I know it can only last so long. I worry that at some point he will reassess what he is getting out of the relationship and realize he needs more. I just didn't think that point would be reached so soon.

The bolded/underlined stood out to me. It seems like, in your feelings, you are setting your relationship up to fail- because you are expecting him to not have the patience, stamina, and self-restraint to remain sympathetic to your needs and your pace. You are expecting him to become impatient with you and demand in some way that you just get over what's holding you back and meet his desire (Note I am not saying NEED here- this is NOT a need!!).

If you are expecting this because his behavior is hinting he will not be able to be sensitive enough to you, then it might be a good idea to start thinking about ending the relationship,which seems like the case to me from your post. However, if you are expecting this based on past experiences with other guys, maybe it would be a good idea to discuss it with him? This thought process might be leading you to hold back longer than you would if you could trust him to be sensitive indefinitely - because you are purposely (though maybe not intentionally) holding back and waiting for this exact scenario to happen.

No one should be expected to be more intimate with a person than they are comfortable with at any time for any reason. The desire for more intimacy is just that - a desire. It is not a need. You do not have to get past your discomfort to be intimate with him. And if that means he has to wait for it longer than he would like, he needs to be able to hold back and give you the time and space you need, no matter how long that is, without pressuring you. You would likely be able to open up and desire intimacy with him sooner if you did not feel pressured, if he showed unconditional support and understanding - helping you feel more comfortable and willing in his presence.

I think you are right to take some time to focus on yourself right now, and maybe put a little more distance between yourself and your boyfriend for now. He may not like it, but if he can't give you the support you need to feel comfortable again, maybe he just isn't for you. That can be a scary thought when it's someone you've already built so much with and shared so much of your life with, but don't let that fear drive you to do something you really don't want to do. It could still work out - but that really depends on him right now and how well he can handle keeping the distance you are currently needing.

 

[Kas_Can_Fly]

• If/When you move in with one another, would you be sharing a room and bed?
• Would any natural lack of clothing (sleeping/showers) be upsetting for you?
• Would you be upset/triggered by NPT (Nocturnal penile tumescence)?
• How much closeness as a couple would be too much - is non-sexual intimacy too much?

Moving in with each other is big for BOTH of you, because when you live together there is very little personal space, physically and emotionally for both of you, both ways round. If you're going through a rough time and/or will be for a long time, so will he and he won't have any place to get away from that. This will be his home as well as yours and there has to be fairness both ways. Maybe he's worried that he'll upset you and by living with you that he'll be more likely to make a mistake, he obviously doesn't want to hurt you.

He might have a higher sex-drive than you (and that may well be increased by living with you) - that doesn't mean you need to have sex, or he will cheat or even that he'll masturbate a lot, it just means that sex might be on his mind, that can't bother you, it's natural. As you are a couple, whether you want/have sex or not, he will find you attractive and certain states of undress even if not meant to arouse, will be likely to do so, that however doesn't mean he has to act on it, but maybe he's worried of putting a foot wrong. It can be upsetting because for him you not wanting to have sex is a form of rejection too, even if he knows the reason why and it's not personal. Even worse is that, you not wanting to have sex means that you aren't OK, which obviously is also going to be upsetting for him.

If you put yourself in his shoes, he's not moving within the same building, he's putting his home of for rent and moving in with you, he can't just move out again and I doubt you could either, this is a serious and long term adjustment and both sides have to feel ok with the decision in every aspect. It would be foolish not try and foresee potential problems because then you can't prevent them. Maybe put off deciding for a day or so and try to calm your fears, then try looking objectively from both sides, pros and cons individually for you and him and, together as a couple. Tackle what you can and be aware of problems that may arise. Communicate clearly and effectively with each other, and try not to let emotions overrun the whole thing. I hope this hasn't been patronising - that's not what was meant. Good luck.

 

[Kas_Can_Fly]

No one should be expected to be more intimate with a person than they are comfortable with at any time for any reason. The desire for more intimacy is just that - a desire. It is not a need.

The first part I agree with entirely, however I'd disagree that there is no need for intimacy and so would many, if not most psychologists (Maslow's Heirachy of Needs [above] is a good reference of where sex and intimacy are seen as a basic human need and that without all of these aspects in life, one will be unhappy or lacking in some way). Some people need it less than others and some people are able to put aside their needs for someone else's for a time, indefinitely however does depend on the individual and the circumstances of the couple. Most people however need it to feel complete and happy, that doesn't make them rapists or manipulative, it simply means they need sex. As I said before both sides need to be considered. If he can't deal with the lack of sex in the relationship, that's no one's fault it's just an unfortunate fact, but that may not be the case at all, in fact this is all supposition. Falling have you tried to ask him what has caused his change in mind?

It is manipulative. He's basically threatening to pull the rug out from underneath you, causing you to feel lost and desperate

Is it manipulative or is it just that he can't handle the relationship. It might seem like a sudden change - but if he's just realised he can't be in the relationship as it stands what is he supposed to say? I definitely don't think it's threatening. I think you have two people very troubled by PTSD, one experiencing it first-hand, the other experiencing it second-hand from a person they love - it might not be their problem but he has to live with it too - but there is the problem - he doesn't have to live with it, he could just walk away and it could be a lot easier for him. I think cold-feet is the term I'm looking for. It's very difficult, but both sides need to be considered.

As I said before, good luck, I really do wish you the best.