If You Didn't Have A Chance To Build A Self Before Complex Trauma

[Tinyflame]

I think we have often times had to be or look like someone else or adopt a demeanour or behaviour or qualities to survive the environment we are in. A bit like a very adaptable chameleon.

 

[ms spock]

I will come back for the other stuff. I just wanted to say this first as I think it's very important. Hopefully you know I am being a friend. :) Feel free to speak directly about your feelings as that is how you will be able to work through them. I won't mind either.

Absolutely I appreciate honesty and forthrightness.

One thing I learnt on this forum was that I could have a different opinion, of course respectfully and also with passion. I had a spirited debate with Anthony about some topic and a couple of times I thought you know if he wanted to ban me he could but he stuck to the letter of honour and inclusiveness. We debated away at length. It was a risk to trust it would be okay if I (politely) stated my opinions and arguments.

 

[ms spock]

we have often times had to be or look like someone else or adopt a demeanour or behaviour or qualities to survive the environment we are in. A bit like a very adaptable chameleon.

Absolutely.

 

[ms spock]

Ms. Spock, you are really sticking with the input and reasoning this out.

Thinking things through, Alba, I am thinking things through. It is good.

 

[Abstract]

Wonderful you have had debates with Anthony Ms Spock! It sounds quite brave to me. I never could tolerate debate at one point but it is good when I could go there without feeling very threatened.

I could have a different opinion,

I am taking from this that I got it wrong and it is great you can put aside what isn't helpful for you.

 

[Bluerose]

Ms Spock,

Fantastic thread. Thank you everyone for such amazing input. Now for my two cents worth.

The trauma is not who we are. It's something we experienced. We don't have to relive the trauma in order to find our true Self. In my case it was to do with suspending the traumatic memories in order to feel for the first time in my life the real me, the real Self, the person I would have been without all the pain, the person I can still be, the person I have in fact become. The traumatic events, along with everything else, good and bad that has happened in my life, have been integrated into what is now called My Life. That's not to say that I no longer have a huge grey cloud above my head from time to time but it's deal-able.

The body truly has the ability to heal itself. And for it to do this all we need to do is get out of the way. Sitting or walking in meditation for just ten to twenty minutes a day, allowing all thoughts to simply pass by, holding onto none, would allow the wonderful grey matter that is our brain to heal the body, mind and soul.

Attitude is important. Wanting to heal is oh so empowering. We are what we think. We are and we will become that that we think about the most. The secret is to think less about what we don't want and more about what we do want; think like survivors and not victims.

I know. I know. Easier said than done. But it can be done. That's the important thing.

 

[Abstract]

I love it Bluerose! :)

 

[Mercy]

People not developing a single self happens when trauma starts very young. I too had a discussion with Anthony about this. It seems as though he doesn't believe in DID/MPD. I agree that we each have only one body. Different persona have their own particular attributes, likes, dislikes, stamina, one has a huge vocabulary. It goes on.......

For example, Polyanna is the part of me that could go to school and birthday parties, be 'normal'. She was a perfect cover most of the time. In Second Grade, I had to use the bathroom and I screamed and screamed because it hurt so much. The teacher came in a yelling,"Who is making all that racket in here." At Polyannna's first experience with pain she disappeared. It was Pat who filled in for me in the 'shell' as strong silent type, a defender of the kids rules. He assessed which inner child was appropriate for which senario.

I am all who I am, by the grace of God. I feel my amnesia was to protect us from being overpowered by the memories, just as God puts sin behind his back an looks on it no more. He has been the one presenting different memories when we are strong enough. Each of my therapists has particular gifts, except one.

Self no self, I need to be God's child and define my way of being by how Christians love one another.

I am sorry if this post offends those of different faith traditions. I am speaking only for myselves

 

[ms spock]

Wonderful you have had debates with Anthony Ms Spock! It sounds quite brave to me. I never could tolerate debate at one point but it is good when I could go there without feeling very threatened.

It was really a good argument because Anthony presented his case thoughtfully and with much consideration. It really got the old grey matter moving. It really is interesting to read what someone else really thinks and who considers your point of view, who then, politely but firmly advances their own point of view.

I am taking from this that I got it wrong and it is great you can put aside what isn't helpful for you.

I am not sure what you mean by getting it wrong Abstract - I did try to PC you but found I couldn't. I do consider what you say. Sometimes I might not use it, but I am appreciative that you contribute and offer your opinion. It is like a having a family with lots of sisters, brothers, aunties and uncles.

 

[ms spock]

People not developing a single self happens when trauma starts very young. I too had a discussion with Anthony about this. It seems as though he doesn't believe in DID/MPD. I agree that we each have only one body. Different persona have their own particular attributes, likes, dislikes, stamina, one has a huge vocabulary. It goes on.......

My psychiatrist considers DID/MPD to be very, very rare. And she thinks a lot of it is therapeutically created (can't spell the name of thearegenic.) This is of no help to you whatsoever but therapists in Australia have gone and done a DID course and then found that about half of their clients have DID. I have seen people begin to act like what they think a DID person should act like. When so many people under one person starts doing that you can see why Australians in particular are very skeptical about the DID/MPD diagnosis. This of course helps you in no way whatsoever. I was a member of ASCA where one therapist decided a whole lot of her clients were DID and they all certainly began acting that way. So for the few people it is real in they aren't going to get a good break from us Australians.

I know how hurtful that it is not to be believed about my sexual, physical, emotional, familial abuse and I don't know how to assist you except to find a corner in your diary or a DID/MPD thread or another forum that deals with what you have. Or in your diary write from each aspect of you self in their own words.

Other than be honest why many Australians are so suspicious of the DID diagnosis I am no help to you at all.

I am sorry if this post offends those of different faith traditions. I am speaking only for myselves

It is all good. I do admire on this forum that people are who say they are faith based or non faith based and they make allowances for other people to be the other way. It shows a lot of generosity on both sides.[/quote]

 

[ms spock]

Fantastic thread. Thank you everyone for such amazing input.

It has been good.

The trauma is not who we are.

I respect that is how it is for you.

But for me I am the trauma in some ways. Every bit of growing up is interlaced with trauma. The more I don't fight that and I just grieve and cry about it. I am getting a lot of relief. There is some internal space where there has been none before.

My psychiatrist said I am starting to process the trauma for the first time so that is good. I thought I had done that but I guess as my previous therapists traumatized me too I guess I didn't get a lot done.

It's something we experienced. We don't have to relive the trauma in order to find our true Self. In my case it was to do with suspending the traumatic memories in order to feel for the first time in my life the real me, the real Self, the person I would have been without all the pain, the person I can still be, the person I have in fact become. The traumatic events, along with everything else, good and bad that has happened in my life, have been integrated into what is now called My Life. That's not to say that I no longer have a huge grey cloud above my head from time to time but it's deal-able.

It is really great that you have worked out a way that works for you. I can imagine that you find a lot of relief to work out who you are. The main thing is that you worked it out for yourself. You seem very clear about it.

I like your considered responses Bluerose and I really appreciate everyone's honesty. I guess in the end each of us has to tailor make our own healing process with input with the others.

The body truly has the ability to heal itself. And for it to do this all we need to do is get out of the way. Sitting or walking in meditation for just ten to twenty minutes a day, allowing all thoughts to simply pass by, holding onto none, would allow the wonderful grey matter that is our brain to heal the body, mind and soul.

I have done that for long periods of time.

Attitude is important. Wanting to heal is oh so empowering.

I told my sisters and brothers when I was 8 that we didn't have to be like our parents that we didn't have to live like that. I went to therapy when I was 15 after I ran away from home in order to stop my father from this thread to kill us all.

I had one therapist that moved in with me. One that go in a relationship with me. One at university that got me to write essays for his student clients that were struggling. I got exploited a lot because I didn't have an model of sanity to base life on as a child. I really, really, really wanted to get better and it is only now at 44 that I am beginning to get stuff. There was never any wanting to stay the way I was. My whole being longed to get better I tried so many, many things.

We are what we think. We are and we will become that that we think about the most. The secret is to think less about what we don't want and more about what we do want; think like survivors and not victims.

I really tried faking it until I made it at being a survivor but until I looked at the victim stuff properly I couldn't make it.

I know. I know. Easier said than done. But it can be done. That's the important thing.

It can be done but we have to have compassion for those who might not make it as far along the track as you do or other people on this forum do.

If this is as good as I get then I want to be grateful for that and live life to my fullest and best. I have a feeling I am going to improve a lot this year. But I have watched many people heal and move on and not having the slightest fathom of how they did it or what to do.

So compassion is important so people don't commit suicide in despair of what they are waiting and/or wanting to do. My neighbour's brother just committed suicide and I can tell you his life looked pretty together to me and pretty cool, though the smile had gone out of his eyes this last year.

As Anthony has been quoted as saying you never really know what people are dealing with. So compassion is important too. If someone is feeling so much pain I need to be able to offer solace and comfort and say yes it is hard and be kind to yourself. I have these successes here and these failures there but I am working on it. If you work out another way then let me know.

 

[ms spock]

To be more clear: It is obviously going to be relatively easy to have a sense of identity for someone who has one then has a trauma or some traumas and finds it difficult at that point. Totally and utterly a different story to when there isn't one to start and when there is early trauma. Especially when that is coupled with poor or bad general parenting. I think this does immense harm as it is the absences that are very important as well as the presence of trauma when it comes to a self.

You express it so well Abstract. It does bring tears to my eyes.

Good parenting at home for a child and then the child has trauma and traumas somewhere else is going to be different to no good parenting and no safe person and trauma. We see it when we look at research on resilience.

I get the first bit about good home with child traumatised outside good home has more of a self from bad home with trauma and no safe person but how does this relate to resilience?

It's why we again and again see misunderstandings and differences when it comes to what treatment works and what doesn't and world view and self view of the person.

I would really like to know the ins and outs of this. I really would.

In my mind it becomes thousands of times more complex and that varies even more with severity of the traumas and amount of time someone has actually had a traumatic reaction to a trauma. That doesn't in any way discount someone's trauma when it happens later.

I don't want to say that my traumas are in any way worse than anyone elses. I would still support people, when I am able, to my best ability. But what I do need is the understanding how to manage the complex trauma and how to heal it. I have been stuck for a fair while on it.

I definitely did not have a self though and didn't have the basic things that involved being a person. I initially didn't even have the veneer of normality I donned later on. At school for years I was too afraid to ask to go to the loo and urinated myself every single time. Even aged 12 I would often run away if anyone tried to talk to me. But I my family didn't torture me physically or break my bones and I had food and a respected family and roof over my head, clothes. I even had stories read to me at times.

The fact you weren't toileted properly or ran away from people age 12 does ring alarm bells for me.

Sometimes I look at people who have had better parenting and less trauma in their lives for me to see what I can take.

I have been carefully examining people to find out the tricks of the trade so to speak. I have been wanting to find someone with complex trauma with a family like mine that began really early that has healed. I just want to pick their brains.

What I was trying to said originally is not in any way about doubting that it is harder and that there is less there to start but rather about what is helpful. For me it is very unhelpful trying to think of anything that requires undoing what has happened. It links into radical acceptance and mindfulness without which I think I would go nuts.

I have been thinking about this a lot (thus people will notice that I have replied to some posts several times - no I am not going mad -- ha ha ha too late for that.) Seriously I am trying to work something out here. I am getting close to some type of understanding.

I need to do more radical acceptance and mindfulness and I can see how that would be helpful also I can see that possibly the line of enquiry I am following may not be the best way to go but there is something I am trying to work out around this. Even if it is to go that is not a helpful and constructive way to go. At the moment it feels important to follow these posts through.

Even for people who have a self then have a trauma there is no going back.

I do understand that BUT they have a few guidelines to follow on the way.

I know they can't get back what they were BUT they have something to have a rough guide on.

They have that solidity of the past to rest against but thinking about trying to be who they were before seems to torment people.

That could be a real down side of it I guess. Though I am envious of people who have something to pull on.

And we don't have to undo or go back and be who we were to have a strong, functional self.

I need to learn all this stuff.

I am merely saying that for me I rather think of finding myself under the trauma, trauma symptoms and dysfunctional parenting and look forward at building a solid me. We are all different and other people might find it helpful to look at it a different way. For me it creates judgement, regret and despair.

And it is helpful to know that for you it creates judgement, regret and despair.

It may seem slightly magical but I truly believe that we all have the foundations of that self in there Ms Spock. Even when the most basic parts of it haven't formed. Even we we have no sense of it whatsoever.

I would like to believe that too. Maybe I do believe that I am not sure at this time.

I think that for you Ms Spock. You had a start that gave you nothing. And yet you have the ability to have compassion and empathy for others. You need to have some part of a self and be using it to have these.

I can kind of get that. And I did get a lot of abuse as the eldest child but there was some good stuff too it is just I was so weighed under by the abuse that I wasn't able to take advantage of that.

Here is an analogy: When we are born part of being human is that we have these parts in us that can be put together to form a self. Normally parenting puts these together for us. Very, very few of these have an expiration date for use. Language is one of them. Most remain in there waiting to be used. I like Hashi's use of the word "muddied" as I think trauma muddies the water so we can't even find the parts yet alone know how to use them. But we can do that and we can start parenting ourselves and utilising a therapist as a surrogate parent to help us do so. Sometimes we can be using some of those parts but because of not using others and because of trauma symptoms the water is so muddied we can't even feel or see we are.

I am stuck with the muddied waters. I can 't see or feel it. I am so lost with it all.

Lately I understood a lot more dissociation, derealisation and depersonalisation.

So for me it is a case of finding and assembling the parts and having a proper sense of using them when I do so that I have that solidity.

I want to get that solidity.