Vulnerability

[The Albatross]

Well stated Philippa, I too, have no beef with Brene Brown and have found her helpful to an extent particularly about shame.

 

[The Albatross]

The only reason I didn't hit the "like" button on the original post is that the quote isn't one that I can relate with on most days even with managed depressive tendencies. It is a stretch for me even on the best of days, though not out of my realm of comprehension on the level of my own personal spiritual beliefs.

I have enjoyed her TED talks and several of her books are astute on the topic of vulnerability. Here's a review article from her latest book, which is on my reading list and I want to acquire for my birthday this month: [DLMURL]http://blog.ted.com/2012/09/11/5-insights-from-brene-browns-new-book-daring-greatly-out-today/[/DLMURL]

 

[Survivor2Thriver]

And I know that vulnerability is the core of shame and fear and our struggle for worthiness, but it appears that it's also the birthplace of joy, of creativity, of belonging, of love.

Rubbish! Well at least she used the word "appears." LOL Vulnerability is NOT the core of shame and fear and our struggle for worthiness. Perhaps it applies to some. Not all. Many of us have valid reasons for distrusting humanity. Our experiences have given us endless insights of what humanity is capable of. Trust but verify comes to mind. That I do..that I do. :) Why? Because I feel joy,creativity,sense of belonging and love. I feel worthy. She has it backwards!

 

[Hashi]

why is everyone speaking as though she is?

"Everyone" isn't. That's precisely what some of us are saying.

However, some therapists apparently think it's a helpful way for a trauma survivor to think about vulnerability. Some trauma survivors say they have found her work useful. This brings the ideas into our "arena". Which I think we can discuss if we want to.

 

[Meadowsweet]

Brene Brown is not saying this in relation to trauma victims or ptsd, so why is everyone speaking as though she is?

I commented on the post shared in the context of PTSD, because it is being shared in the context of a PTSD forum and was mentioned in the context of a therapist treating somebody for PTSD.

I go to spiritual sites that have a lot of cliched quotes that mean something to the people who read them, and in that context, i accept it as that and don't have much to do with it. In a similar way, religions have a lot to say about how to heal and view life, and that is perfectly acceptable for someone who seeks guidance from somebody who shares that religion. But I feel that therapists should not use things like this as part of therapy.

 

[Philippa]

I commented on the post shared in the context of PTSD, because it is being shared in the context of a PTSD forum and was mentioned in the context of a therapist treating somebody for PTSD.

Ok, I can see that. But the OP was stating it as though the woman herself was being shallow in her approach, when it might have been more accurate to say that "in the context of" PTSD and healing, it isn't that simple for people to be vulnerable, and nor desirable.

I go to spiritual sites that have a lot of cliched quotes that mean something to the people who read them, and in that context, i accept it as that and don't have much to do with it.

Fair enough. A woman I know who is a therapist and runs a site for estranged people encourages people to question everything they read and see, including cliched quotes. They can be helpful to some people and not so much to others.

In a similar way, religions have a lot to say about how to heal and view life, and that is perfectly acceptable for someone who seeks guidance from somebody who shares that religion. But I feel that therapists should not use things like this as part of therapy.

I didn't get the feeling this thread was started to discourage therapists from using brene brown as a model for healing, but I can see where you are coming from, now that you've explained your point of view. Thanks. :)[DOUBLEPOST=1399070426,1399070154][/DOUBLEPOST]

"Everyone" isn't. That's precisely what some of us are saying.

I heard one person say they didn't agree, and the rest agreeing with the OP. My mistake if you were acknowledging that others don't...that's just not what I was seeing.

However, some therapists apparently think it's a helpful way for a trauma survivor to think about vulnerability. Some trauma survivors say they have found her work useful. This brings the ideas into our "arena". Which I think we can discuss if we want to.

Of course you can discuss anything you like. Had there been mention that some trauma survivors did find her work helpful, rather than her work being simply written off as shallow, then I may not have posted in the first place. I admit I didn't read all the posts before commenting.

I guess it would be helpful for some, her work, and not so much for others...depending on where they are at. Vulnerability takes a certain amount of willingness to be hurt, since that is a part of life, and many trauma survivors aren't willing to open themselves up to any more hurt...which is understandable.

I personally think it's a better way to live...but that's me. Yes, most people are not trustworthy, but there are many who do appreciate openness in communication and will respect it when presented with it...and not hurt the person. It's a matter of knowing when and how much of yourself to be open.

I have had the luxury of remembering what it was like to be able to trust people growing up. I did not have sexual abuse in my past childhood history, so I have lived a life very different to many here, and whilst it may not have always been a wise thing to trust as much as I did, I do remember when I was being vulnerable, I had many interesting conversations and the people respected me for my openness and did not hurt me. Others did.

 

[Valentino]

Isn't shame a very common if not integral symptom for PTSD survivors?

It seems to match many issues within DSM V's Criterion D:

Criterion D: negative alterations in cognitions and mood

Negative alterations in cognitions and mood that began or worsened after the traumatic event: (two required)

1 Inability to recall key features of the traumatic event (usually dissociative amnesia; not due to head injury, alcohol, or drugs).
2 Persistent (and often distorted) negative beliefs and expectations about oneself or the world (e.g., "I am bad," "The world is completely dangerous").
3 Persistent distorted blame of self or others for causing the traumatic event or for resulting consequences.
4 Persistent negative trauma-related emotions (e.g., fear, horror, anger, guilt, or shame).
5 Markedly diminished interest in (pre-traumatic) significant activities.
6 Feeling alienated from others (e.g., detachment or estrangement).
7 Constricted affect: persistent inability to experience positive emotions.

Wouldn't you think that a graduate university research professor with a MSW and PhD in Social Work who has spent over ten years studying and researching shame and vulnerability, might have some insights to offer PTSD survivors who often struggle with shame issues?

Not only that, it seems her research and theories are based on hundreds if not thousands of different types of feedback from different people:

in the decade of doing this research. My one year turned into six years: thousands of stories, hundreds of long interviews, focus groups. At one point, people were sending me journal pages and sending me their stories -- thousands of pieces of data in six years.
-- excerpt TED talk "Power of Vulnerability"

It's totally fine to be skeptical of a person's theories, but to dismiss them simply because of a few cliche like quotes taken out of context, that seems a bit unfair and premature.

Can anyone point towards any practical and proven strategies or theories that avoid vulnerability or cover up shame without any significant side effects to quality of life and depth within relationships?

 

[Pencil]

@Valentino - your interpretation is spot on, and what Brene Brown says is absolutely correct. I have no problem with what she is saying. I have a problem with the 1) applicability, and 2) the way from 'here' to 'there'. It seems to me that she is expressing a human ideal, and an admirable ideal, but that ideal is hard to attain, not only for people with mental disorders. Strength and vulnerability go hand-in-hand - the one without the other is not attractive or healthy, and they have to develop in tandem. My issue is not with the ideal, it is with the how of actually doing it. I would have the same problem with someone talking about self-actualization in Maslow's hierarchy as if one can just 'be' self actualizing while battling at much lower levels.

I guess I find it annoying because it shows me how far I have to go. But I also find it annoying because I think the human race has still has a long way to go - but without a map. I know she can't give a map with directions. But .. what then? I think if she expressed this as an ideal, and not as a kind of prescription, I would be less edgy about it.

Okay, I watched it a long time ago. So I think I should shut up until I've watched the whole thing again.

 

[Meadowsweet]

Wouldn't you think that a graduate university research professor with a MSW and PhD in Social Work who has spent over ten years studying and researching shame and vulnerability, might have some insights to offer PTSD survivors who often struggle with shame issues?

Possibly, yes. And if somebody came here and shared a quote that I found insightful, I would be discussing an insightful quote.

There just seems a bit too much being made of this I think. It's not an anti-Brene Brown thread, just one person saying that they don't get much from this particular writer, and sharing a quote that illustrates why. Others might share a similar view of the quote, or they might be fans of Brene-Brown.

Different people have different tastes, that's all. As far as the therapist using it, I think part of a therapists job is to try to find the different keys that work for different people.

 

[Hashi]

@Valentino, I don't think the length of time she's been researching and the number of people she's studied are necessarily relevant. What's relevant is the focus of the research and the characteristics of the people. I'd actually say that if the majority of her study subjects have not had PTSD then her conclusions might be likely to be less valuable to those with PTSD. Her credentials are credentials for something slightly different.

At any rate, I've never read or heard (TED talks) her saying that it applies to severe trauma or PTSD. I think it's entirely whether someone comes across her work and finds it helpful in a trauma/PTSD context, or not.

 

[Hashi]

@Pencil, I'm surprised at how little practical information I've come across in her work. Maybe it's in the things that I haven't heard/read but she does seem to focus on "why to" and "what to" rather than "how to".

I see "why to" in her talking about light and living fully. I see "what to" when she identifies areas and examples of (ordinary) shame and fear. Other than that, it seems to be basically: now you know you need to do it - just do it. Or perhaps - just have therapy, face those emotions and do it.

Maybe for people who can fill in the "how to" blanks for themselves, or they're with the right fit of therapist for that, it works. Maybe the "why to" and the "what to" are the most helpful things for some people. In which cases they're probably going to feel positive about her work.

I think it is possible to break down "how to" and get very practical. Some time ago, Susan Jeffers did it in "Feel the fear and do it anyway". What she said ties in to what you and others have said about vulnerability needing strength. Her basic premise was to tell yourself, with regard to what might happen if you take a risk, "I can handle it".

Of course, the kind of risk we're facing could be risk of things we can't handle. Susan Jeffers wasn't talking about complex trauma or PTSD. But in the general context at least she was explaining how. As I remember it her book was almost all about how, certainly much more than why and what.

Brene Brown is great at presentation. She's a born performer, I can see how she could inspire people. For me, it's mostly sparkle and shine and hard to find substance underneath. Bearing in mind again, that if some people most need inspiration then the sparkle and shining would be great.

 

[Pencil]

Brown is also thinking of a utopia, and not real life.

We've been basically homeless for months, and objectively vulnerable. I dare not show vulnerability. So I shouldn't comment on this thread.