Vulnerability

[Valentino]

This is Brene Brown specifically addressing the question about her research in regards to trauma survivors:

Questioner: I'm a therapist and work with clients that deal with abuse in their childhood ... for those people who have never experienced that sense of self worth to begin with, what has your research taught you in regards to how to help people make that next leap, when their whole life they've experienced unworthiness ...

Brene: First of all, for many people who have a trauma history, vulnerability is completely unsafe, and armor kept people alive. So that whole "Hey you just need to do your work and get your armor off," is not a reasonable request for people without doing some real trauma work, with people who have been trained to do that work. That is my professional opinion.

3 minute video clip:

 

[Survivor2Thriver]

My point about boundaries is, of course, I have boundaries. Everyone has boundaries. My theory is "creeps" will know when they've crossed mine after they cross them. LOL I have been around too many creeps. Therefore, I don't broadcast mine. I allow people to be who they are. Free rein baby! LOL Ultimately it gives them room to show me who they are much faster. You don't need boundaries with wholehearted people they have their own healthy boundaries. Everyone should have their own healthy boundaries. That is my point!

I still say..I don't feel BB understands "following one's gut." It is late and I am tired. I HAVE tried to see/understand her viewpoint. It's not happening. Her whole view concerning vulnerability is IMHO wrong.

 

[Meadowsweet]

Brene: First of all, for many people who have a trauma history, vulnerability is completely unsafe, and armor kept people alive. So that whole "Hey you just need to do your work and get your armor off," is not a reasonable request for people without doing some real trauma work, with people who have been trained to do that work. That is my professional opinion.

I'm glad that she was professional enough to realise this. This is pretty much what I've been saying all the way through this thread.

What she went on to say was unadulterated selling technique in my opinion. We've also discussed the difference between shame from abuse and shame not from abuse, and people here are able to quite significantly differentiate those two feelings. The way that Brown in selling her book in this clip, is minimising that differentiation.

I would like to talk to that group of people who had experienced shame from sexual abuse, and ask them how they felt about learning that someone who has had someone diss their ginger hair, feels shame just the same as them. She doesn't say that that is how they reacted - she leaves out that part of the story to leave her audience with the impression that those trauma survivors would understand their shame in that way, and support her book.

 

[Survivor2Thriver]

Thank you for the video Valentino! :) Hopefully what doesn't work for one will work for another.

Questioner: I'm a therapist and work with clients that deal with abuse in their childhood ... for those people who have never experienced that sense of self worth to begin with, what has your research taught you in regards to how to help people make that next leap, when their whole life they've experienced unworthiness ...

I was a child. I had no idea what I was doing at the time. I refused to drink their Kool-Aid. Looking back... I was fighting for my worthiness. That was the whole struggle!

Brene: First of all, for many people who have a trauma history, vulnerability is completely unsafe, and armor kept people alive. So that whole "Hey you just need to do your work and get your armor off," is not a reasonable request for people without doing some real trauma work, with people who have been trained to do that work. That is my professional opinion.

I am not trying to be difficult but please explain how her work doesn't/couldn't apply to childhood abuse? It negates her whole theory! She has researched vulnerability for 12 years to the depth of "regular vunerability/shame?" Is there such a thing??

 

[Survivor2Thriver]

I would like to talk to that group of people who had experienced shame from sexual abuse, and ask them how they felt about learning that someone who has had someone diss their ginger hair, feels shame just the same as them.

None of the above is shame.

 

[Valentino]

starting 1:50min into the above video:

and they said something that changed me forever, "That's not possible! You can't feel the way you write about in the books, if you haven't survived a trauma."

and I said "What do you mean?"

(they said)"How can you feel like you're not good enough to be a mother, or you're not good enough to do this, or how can you be ashamed of what you look like, if you haven't gone through this (trauma)?"

And what it really drove home for me, is that for a lot of people who have a trauma history, they believe that shame is reserved for them, that it is not a part of the human experience, that it's a part of the trauma experience.

And so part of getting to worthiness, is understanding that every single one of us struggles with shame, that every single one of us struggles with that feeling of not being good enough, and that trauma is one piece of it, and we all have baskets of pain, and some may be bigger because people have different histories, and then when you start adding racism, homophobia, heterosexism and gender stuff, you have a big old basket. Everybody has a story that can break your heart.

I think one of the biggest things when you're helping people who have a trauma history, is understanding that part of the battle you're fighting is around trauma, the rest is about being human.

I think Brene's position is that shame is part of the human experience, everyone struggles with shame, trauma is one piece of it.

Is this a major issue of disagreement?

 

[Pencil]

You don't need boundaries with wholehearted people they have their own healthy boundaries. Everyone should have their own healthy boundaries. That is my point!

I fully and 'wholeheartedly' agree with that!! Think of Nelson Mandela, think of the truly evolved people ....[DOUBLEPOST=1399278400,1399278195][/DOUBLEPOST]

I think one of the biggest things when you're helping people who have a trauma history, is understanding that part of the battle you're fighting is around trauma, the rest is about being human.

I also agree with this.[DOUBLEPOST=1399278503][/DOUBLEPOST]My question to those in therapy: Isn't that where you are / become / learn to become vulnerable or risk vulnerability?

 

[Hashi]

What I see her saying in that video clip is, sort out the trauma issues with a trauma therapist first. After that, what she says about vulnerability applies to everyone equally because we're all human.

So this seems to come right back around to the view that it isn't appropriate for trauma survivors, but with the addition that once we've dealt with trauma issues/dealt with them enough it will be. The only small problem with that being that you have to address vulnerability in some other way in order to do the trauma work first. By Brene Brown's own admission, not the Brene Brown way. So why would a therapist bring Brene Brown's ideas into trauma work?

Anyway, I feel like we're going round in circles. I thought we'd already established that (a) Brene Brown's work isn't aimed at trauma-related issues and (b) those who find it helpful seem to be those who would identify as being further on in recovery.

to those in therapy: Isn't that where you are / become / learn to become vulnerable or risk vulnerability?

It's certainly a place where you have to work on it. I don't think it's the only place. For me, doing art has been the biggest way I've done any work on vulnerability. Journalling and journal exercises using metaphor is the second. Therapy is the third (but I would put zero-talking somatic therapy and talk-based therapy there together - joint third).

In terms of working through shame, which I don't see hand-in-hand with vulnerability, I'd say the order would be 1) online forums, 2) talk therapy, 3) journaling/journal exercises.

But, are you talking about vulnerability or are you talking about attachment issues?

I feel that vulnerability can have a number of meanings, but there might be a tendency to see it as pretty much the same for everyone. For some people vulnerability means having to look after themselves out in the world (income, housing, finding friends) rather than staying in a non-ideal relationship where those things are taken care of. I've already said what it means for me. It isn't always centred around attachment or relationships.

For me, it's actually more helpful to see vulnerability as a dynamic rather than as an intrinsic issue. It's like with anxiety-related issues. There are times when it's helpful to deal with fear of leaving the house as specifically fear of leaving the house, and compulsive lock-checking specifically as compulsive lock-checking. There are also times when it's helpful to see those things as something wider, called anxiety. Partly to look at it as a pattern and understand the dynamics, and therefore what might work as counter-dynamics. Partly to look at it less personally, and allow for all sorts of helpful things like non-judgement and detached awareness.

 

[Philippa]

There it is again. So now anger restores self worth?

It can...if the person has had a history of allowing people to walk all over their boundaries, and not even know they have a right to healthy boundaries. That is why therapists encourage people to get in touch with the anger they store in their bodies. Hey, you are the one who brought up anger again in this discussion, not me.

Anger sends a clear message. It says "You are not allowed to do this to me." In that sense, it restores the person with a sense that they are important...which is kinda important to self-esteem and self-worth. It sets a clear boundary. For many people they've never even had the experience of feeling like they are even more than a thing, let alone important enough to assert boundaries.

When training in martial arts, the sensei will attempt to get the student to utilize their anger and aggression in a way that can be used positively if they are threatened. Many people have overcome their fear of anger and it has served them well. Martial arts is one of the best ways for a person to build self-confidence.

Anger is a natural human emotion, and it has something to teach us, as does every emotion. You seem to have trouble accepting this. You also seem to speak as though you have the absolute truth about anger...but it's really only your own opinion.

I allow the lesson of every emotion to come through to me and this has been my finding. In that way I agree with therapists who subscribe to this. You are in no way obliged to agree with me, but I find it quite narrow minded to have you dismiss what I have to say just because you disagree. I thought the point of people sharing different perspectives was to learn from each other...not play the game of "I'm right so you must be wrong."

There is always a little gem of truth in what every persons point of view, if you look for it and don't just assume you know everything there is to know about something so that it clouds your ability to step outside your own little universe and bubble of beliefs for a second to consider what someone else has to say. In that way we are all 'right'. I don't find anger to be 'worthless' at all. I see the value in all emotions, and also the value in allowing ourselves to feel all emotions.

How else can we truly have a well rounded experience of life, with only some emotions that are allowed to be felt and others judged as 'bad'? I aim for a full experience of life...not the watered down version. You can have that if you think it's the better way to live. I'm just sharing my own insight into anger.

Many activists are in fact abused children. They channel their anger into worthy causes, which gives them a sense of self worth and purpose. They use their anger in a positive way, to create change in the world, where it is needed. I've met people on this forum who have said they intend to go the activist route specifically to channel their anger.

Anyway, that is the last I will touch on about anger. I think it's probably better to stay focussed on the subject, and why therapists think using brene brown as a model for healing is such a good idea, when she herself admits it isn't? That other conversation is going nowhere.

 

[Philippa]

So why would a therapist bring Brene Brown's ideas into trauma work?

This is something I've been pondering all day. Perhaps the focus of this discussion should be on this and not critiquing brene browns work...after all, she isn't the one peddling it to trauma survivors, and even admitted in Valentinos video that it isn't appropriate to some people who have had these kinds of traumas. She's just doing her thing.

Yes, definitely becoming a circular argument, which isn't productive.

 

[Valentino]

Maybe another point of difference is that some trauma survivors end up abandoning or rejecting their humanity, while other trauma survivors are able to retain parts of their humanity.

In this case, those who still have some humanity may find Brene's research and teachings helpful for enhancing their humanity. While those who are still mostly disconnected from their humanity, probably need other methods and tools.

 

[Meadowsweet]

@Valentino , what do you mean by our humanity?