BPD Bpd vs c-ptsd

[Deleted member 18673]

I was originally diagnosed with PTSD. Now my new psychiatrist has diagnosed me with BPD. I understand the traits she sees but they also correspond directly with Complex PTSD, and with my horrific childhood, C-PTSD seems the more logical diagnoses. I am going to talk to her about it, just wondered what experiences others have, especially with being misdiagnosed.

 

[Kas_Can_Fly]

As there is no diagnostic criteria for C-PTSD and it is not recognised as a real disorder, it's pretty unlikely that she will diagnose you with it. People who have been told they have C-PTSD have usually misunderstood their diagnosis - complex trauma and PTSD or some other reason, or a bracketed diagnosis of PTSD and personality/dissociative disorder. Sometimes now because of the amount of people now claiming to have C-PTSD a professional may even say you have C-PTSD, the problem there is - there is no such disorder recognised by any authority on the matter, so another professional may (and quite rightly) disagree with you or your professional.

There is a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about C-PTSD unfortunately but the easiest way to explain it is: Your trauma maybe sexual/military/domestic violence/natural disaster/medical/complex/traffic accident etc, these trauma's do not create different disorders just PTSD, some symptoms are more often grouped after one type of trauma (e.g dissociative reactions and personality disorders after childhood and childhood sexual abuse or anger and impulse issues after military trauma) but they are all part and parcel of PTSD.

In some cases an individual may have complex trauma and PTSD and a Personality Disorder and problems with dissociation or any combination thereof, and are then diagnosed with (e.g. my case) PTSD+Avoidant Personality Disorder+Depersonalisation Disorder. Until (and if) CPTSD is ever recognized as being seperate disorder, whilst there is still all that misinformation out there, I highly doubt if your professional is fulfilling his/her job correctly, you will be diagnosed with C-PTSD.

Unless you just meant that you wanted him/her to acknowledge that your trauma was complex... :confused: ... If so **Eeek!** I'm sorry for all that extra info.

Good Luck :)

 

[TimeToHeal]

Hi @conquer. While Kas is correct in saying there is currently no official diagnosis of C-PTSD, I have to disagree with some of the other things in her post. The "idea" of C-PTSD is that the trauma endured (typically childhood abuse, childhood sexual abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, or imprisonment, torture, etc...multiple assaults, abuse that was long lasting), actually inhibited our development, changed our personalities, the way we view the world, make (or not make) attachments, etc.

I was actually first diagnosed (at way too young of an age) with BPD, it was only about 5 years ago that I was finally diagnosed with PTSD. There is much overlap between BPD and what some refer to as C-PTSD.

There is another recent thread that might offer you some more information. I'll try to post the link.

https://www.myptsd.com/threads/what-is-complex-trauma.44817/

 

[Kas_Can_Fly]

@TimeToHeal I'm not creating an argument or picking a fight, I'm just curious how an adult prisoner of war can have an inhibited development. Also, how do you separate out the effects of trauma (complex or otherwise) on personal relationships and attachments and personality disorders play into these things? Would these effects of C-PTSD be more than for non-complex trauma and less than a personality disorder? (I promise I mean this unconfrontationally - sorry!).

I'm also not against the diagnosis of CPTSD - some of the many health professionals I have seen have said I have C-PTSD and by any and every unofficial definition I have. My traumas were many spanning from the age of 4-23, from narcissistic caregivers to extensive school bullying, I was sexually abused on a daily basis for a very long time by my father and a number of others, it was incredibly sadistic, they played games with me and enjoyed getting my fear of them, I was hunted once and on a number of occasion I was tortured by one of them, I also had a miscarriage of one of their children - in other words, complex! I have huge troubles with life in general, socially and personally, I have a personality disorder and huge problems with dissociation - I only say this to clarify I don't mean it against the diagnosis.

It's just as it currently stands it is making a lot of people confused and upset and I think that until it does "officially" exist, it's better to bypass it in a way, unless you can accept that you might have it, but getting it diagnosed is another thing entirely. There has been another disorder quite similar to some definitions of C-PTSD in the DESNOS (Diagnosis of Extreme Stress Not Otherwise Specified).

I think something that would help all of us (for the purpose of this question) and in the long term, his psychiatrist is to know under what definition(s) or set of symptoms of C-PTSD does @conquer feel he fits?

 

[Ed Norton]

PTSD is frequently misdiagnosed as BPD. It is in the scholarly litterature everywhere. I can not link articles from my phone but if you have access to Medline or Pubmed you will find numerous articles.

By BPD I assume you mean bipolar disorder.

Good luck

 

[NovemberStar]

I was misdiagnosed as having BPD when I was 18. They never considered PTSD, despite obvious trauma in my life to that date (prolonged physical, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, and witnessingAll they had was a snapshot of how I coped with my trauma - I self harmed, had been sexually abused and I was a young woman - those 3 things seem automatically labelled as you having BPD.

What a lot of crock.

The thing with BPD that I feel differentiates it from PTSD (trauma during childhood that was prolonged and / or multiple) is that the 'symptoms' of BPD must be consistent over time and context. Yes, I had attachment issues (with mother figures in therapy) that resulted in intense dynamics. Yes I had trouble regulating my emotions. I acted out with self harm, had an eating disorder, had mood swings. On the outset I could see how they came to the diagnosis.

HOWEVER - 'funny' how the symptoms disappeared with therapy and rehab - my so called BPD (which was actually PTSD) went into remission. Oh sure the literature suggest those with BPD can and do, get better - usually as the person gets older, and 'learns how to cope with it'.

But my 'BPD' came back (ie my PTSD did!!!!). Another trauma triggered up all the same old symptoms. I'm not self harming in the same way now, mainly because the 12 years of stability and NORMALCY is a strong foundation.

What was assumed to be BPD was NOT consistent across time and context. The intense relationship dynamics I had were NOT in all contexts of my life - it was limited to the therapeutic context (ie transference with a therapist). My 'BPD' is only present WHEN I have PTSD relapses. I had 12 years without PTSD symptoms ('BPD' symptoms). In those 12 years I might have been able to be diagnosed as having intermittent depression, but I did not meet the criteria for either BOD or PTSD in all that time.

Even now, while struggling with PTSD, it is only in certain contexts the so called BPD traits are there - in my working life I am as functional as the next person. I don't respond in typical ways someone with BPD would when faced with so called perceived rejection or abandonment. Those feelings and perceptions ONLY occur in the therapeutic relationship.

BPD is a personality disorder. It suggests it's permanent; that the effects of prolonged childhood abuse have changed you FORVER, that you have to 'learn to live with it'. PTSD on the other hand isn't necessarily permanent. Trauma during childhood can affect us proudly but those effects DONT have to be permanent. They can be resolved and worked through.

For me, that is the other crucial difference between BPD and PTSD - BPD is your personality -it suggests the foundation cannot be changed. (How freaking hopeless!!!!!). PTSD on the other hand (complex or not) does not hold the same hopeless foundation.

People argue 'but there's no cure for PTSD!'. Sure - there is no definite / single therapy or treatment that can 'cure' for PTSD. BUT there is also no cure for cancer either - yet many people do go into full remission; some get cancer a second or third time - but others never get it again.

That's where I am in my experience. I did not ever have BPD (how the FARK can a personality come and go, it's presence dictated by the presence or recurrence of trauma???!!!!). PTSD on the other hand can.

I don't necessarily think CPTSD needs to be recognised officially in order to prevent misdiagnosis. But I do think mental health professionals need to be aware that what MIGHT appear as BPD is highly likely to be a slightly different presentation of PTSD - ie, PTSD with traits of BPD - and there desperately needs to be a distinction in that regard. Having 'traits' is a very different thing to having the disorder. Unfortunately, few are aware of the overlap some of us APPEAR to have and we get the wrong treatment as a result :mad:

I was not treated for PTSD. The 'treatment' for BPD did more harm than good. And then again, maybe this is where a official recognition of 'CPTSD' would be helpful in those cases where there is PTSD alongside what they assume to be BPD. Cos to put it all down to BPD is not only very unhelpful, it doesn't help treatment of our PTSD!

And I also think how can health professionals be sure of 'BPD' if a person has been exposed to prolonged, complex trauma in childhood, and never received treatment for that trauma? How can they be sure the 'symptoms' won't resolve once the trauma is addressed and treated?

It's almost as if a TRUE diagnosis of BPD CANNOT be diagnosed with certainty until the 'symptoms' either resolve with treatment (thus proving it wasn't BPD but PTSD with a different presentation), or prove to be ongoing, despite effective treatment for PTSD. In other words, in cases where a person has PTSD, BPD should really be a hindsight diagnosis.

 

[TimeToHeal]

@Ed Norton, BPD = Borderline Personality Disorder.

@NovemberStar - YES!

@Kas_Can_Fly - I appreciate you taking the time to write a reply. I do not have the energy to respond to it now, but I will do so later.

 

[silkleaves]

I'm not creating an argument or picking a fight, I'm just curious how an adult prisoner of war can have an inhibited development

I know this was directed to @TimeToHeal, but I thought I'd offer my view on this? Not just inhibited development, but as TimeToHeal mentioned along with it, changes in personality and the view of the world. A POW isn't just held as a prisoner in a cell block, but undergo some pretty horrific stuff while in that situation, mental, physical and also sexual abuse. Not to mention the horrors they already experienced while in war itself.

Also, not to sterotype or generalize, but just from my personal experience, a lot of us endured childhood trauma as well. I cannot say much for those who were drafted, but can say that it is actually really harrowing, the amount of people I served with who came from abusive homes. Everyone I was in therapy with also had either some sort of abuse, or would say they don't have a good relationship with their parents. Not to mentions many of my friends who were in gangs throughout their teens and had to do some pretty nasty things / never knew if every day was going to be their last. Joining the military was for many the way out to escape their home / family / gang / town and get as far away from it as possible.

And please keep in mind, I'm just speaking from my experiences with the people I served with and was in therapy with, but even if it didn't affect them before and seemed to be a-okay, they likely would have remained so if it weren't for the military trauma completely setting them off. So that's kind of my take on it...

Though to be honest, even with absolutely no history of trauma, I cannot begin to imagine the type of horrors that one would go through in combat or as a POW, and can definitely see how that would twist someones mind and set back whatever emotional development they have...Our brains don't fully develop until we are in our mid-20's or something, and there are kids out there in these situations. So yes, I definitely do think that military trauma would be enough to halt and do damage to ones development before its time.

 

[Kas_Can_Fly]

I think my point has been misunderstood. Being a prisoner of war must be hugely horrific and traumatic, of course I understand that those who have suffered such atrocities must be shattered to their core. They have been systematically broken and will never be the same again. I merely chose it as an example of adult complex trauma, my questions could be applied to those who have suffered long-term domestic violence or adult sexual abuse for example

However what I meant was in a linear progression of events: one is born, one grows up and with it their personality fuses and makes them into them by around age 9-12 with further development occurring afterwards as they mature, then presumably not before the age of 18 join a military career and by (for example) 20-25 are captured in enemy territory and held captive before being released or freed some time later utterly broken.
From my understanding a personality disorder is shown by the early teens and persists through adolescence into adulthood, where it is then diagnosed.

Does then the personality regress and somehow un-fuse to create these personality disorders? Is it a personality disorder if their personality was previously not damaged, are not their personality "flaws" due to their horrific trauma?

I do not mean I think my trauma compares to that of a prisoner of war. I do not think I am able to understand their trauma because of or despite my own.

I do think that in many cases however (though maybe rightly, I'm not so sure), that C-PTSD is used to somehow mean more. More PTSD doesn't make sense because it's a label that's really only able to state we suffer greatly from the effect of life-threatening trauma - this is unique to the sufferer and I presume very personal. More trauma does make sense, someone can be raped once or many times but this does not certify they will suffer more or less.

For me at least, I think it's best for professionals to decide whether C-PTSD exists or if it's a combination of disorders or clustered symptoms that mean the same thing. Someone (myself included) can feel free believing in C-PTSD and that they have it but that doesn't help (or at least my case) your professional to diagnose you with a currently non-exisistent disorder.

I hope this clarifies a little the point I was trying to make, especially about prisoners of war, but if for any reason I am wrongly perceived again for this or any other of my posts, I certainly didn't mean to cause any offense and am sorry if I have. I also think maybe I'm taking this thread off topic and for that I'm sorry as well.

 

[cherryblossom]

@Kas_Can_Fly , I wonder if the only 'disgreement' here (for want of a better word), is the interpretation of @TimeToHeal 's phrasing.

The "idea" of C-PTSD is that the trauma endured (typically childhood abuse, childhood sexual abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, or imprisonment, torture, etc...multiple assaults, abuse that was long lasting), actually inhibited our development, changed our personalities, the way we view the world, make (or not make) attachments, etc.

I read that to mean, "actually inhibited our development, and/or changed our personalities, and/or the way we view the world, and/or make (or not make) attachments, etc." As in, not necessarily all of those things. That was my interpretation. Clearly I can't speak for TimeToHeal, just pointing out that the statement isn't clear as to how it should be interpreted.

Complex trauma typically encapsulates the issues surrounding the longevity, the changes in your core being, so forth... which may, or may not, have concluded a personality diagnosis or such as a result.

It's all just confusing to me, that people get a diagnosis that doesn't exist :oops:

 

[TimeToHeal]

I apologize if my post caused any (or further) confusion.

In short, what I was trying to convey is that, what I have learned from much reading on the topic, is that the idea of C-PTSD....or complex trauma, or whatever one prefers to refer to it as.... is not so much the actual trauma itself (although the trauma associated is long term, or multiple single events), but the effect is has on someone (and/or their personality). Many of these effects, or characteristics, are also associated with, or listed under, BPD.

As is true with non "C" PTSD, not everyone who endures such trauma will have these effects. People are different - what might throw one person into "full blown" PTSD, might be much easier for another to "get over". In other words, not everyone who suffers through a rape will end up with PTSD. Not everyone who endures years of childhood abuse/neglect (or multiple assaults or every POW, etc) will develop the "characteristics" associated with the concept of C-PTSD.

I hope this helps in clarifying my last post.

Obviously this is a topic that can become quite heated - although I'm not sure why. I think that some interpret it to say that ones persons trauma is/was worse than another's, when in fact it is simply referring to a somewhat different set of "effects" that said trauma has had on a person. Someone can have lived through years of childhood (or other) trauma and have the symptoms (or "effects") associated with PTSD or those that go along with the concept of C-PTSD, or none at all. Just as one might live through a single event (although none the less horrific) rape, and develop symptoms ("effects") of PTSD, and another having lived through the same exact trauma, may not.

 

[silkleaves]

Oh I hope this convo doesn't get heated! I do like the exchange of questions and ideas and explanations! And this whole thing is anyway very confusing. Add to it that, at least for me personally, I'm looking at this condition from the inside out...what I know best is what I personally am going through, and then next to that, an understanding of those who are also going through it, mostly those who were in my group therapy.

From my understanding a personality disorder is shown by the early teens and persists through adolescence into adulthood, where it is then diagnosed.
Does then the personality regress and somehow un-fuse to create these personality disorders? Is it a personality disorder if their personality was previously not damaged, are not their personality "flaws" due to their horrific trauma?

Something my Therapist told me, is that many times, a person could be suffering from PTSD and not have any idea of it until a stressor that is the last straw. This was something that came up when I was still in one-on-one therapy, and completely broke down because I could not understand how I was able to hold it together and be just fine and functioning for 35 years, and now all of a sudden I'm completely useless...and over something stupid like a breakup. She explained it wasn't my breakup, just that it was the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak.

She let me know that there were vets who came in who were only just then having problems functioning from a trauma that happened 40-50 years prior. It's not always instant. And also now that I'm learning more about it and myself, I'm realizing that I actually was showing signs of it all my life, just that it didn't affect my life like it is now. Everyone who knows me well has always made jokes of how I hide under my rock or fall off the earth, call me the quirky one, in all my relationships I'm sweet but at times madly infuriating. And all this time it was just assumed as part of my personality. Parts of me that I didn't particularly like, and annoyed people at times, but it didn't stop me from functioning so it wasn't a problem.

So while maybe a personality disorder you are born with will show right away and people may be able to tell you are not quite right and you get diagnosed sooner, I think that with this...especially if you are a child when you suffer trauma, and also taught to pretend everything is okay and never let on or tell anyone what is going on at home, those coping techniques and defense mechanisms develop in order to keep the trauma you are dealing with hidden so it's not obvious that there is a development issue. I mean, like for me personally, my mom threatened to kill me on a nearly daily basis...my life depended on making sure no one knew what she was like and what she was doing to me. I was the happiest kid you'd ever meet. My grades did not suffer...they couldn't, I got a C on my report card once and my mother beat me for it....I vividly remember that beating and still have the scar from it. Everything I did that made me seem like I was a well rounded, well adjusted kid was completely out doing what I had to, to make sure I didn't set my mother off and be killed in my bed at night.

By the time you're an adult, it has already become a part of who you are, in place of who you would have been had you not gone through trauma. I continued to be a super happy fun person, the worse I felt, the bigger the smile I put out to the world. I put my all into my work, my relationships, my friendships, and always felt like I had to prove I was worth having around by being as perfect as possible. And it's not until your cup overflows, so to speak, that it all comes to a head and stuffing it all back in to go back to coping like you trained yourself to just doesn't work anymore. I'm not good at anything anymore...just taking a shower makes me feel accomplished. It was always there...the signs just didnt show obviously, immediately, because I learned to do what I had to, to appear as normal as possible because that is what kept me safe, until the moment a couple decades later when I just couldn't anymore. And I venture to guess, I'm not alone, that there are other child abuse sufferers who have gone through the same thing.