Mdma

[Dana1010]

I found a website last night about experiments in treating PTSD with MDMA (known on the street as ecstasy). There was a video segment featuring two sufferers who claim that MDMA changed their lives. One, a Vietnam vet lacking the resources to participate in a clinical trial, went underground and bought the drug illegally. About his initial experience with the drug, he had this to say (paraphrase): "MDMA did for me in a few hours what therapy couldn't do in thirty years."

The science is like this: MDMA shuts off the amygdala which processes fear and increases activity in the prefrontal cortex which analyses and puts things into context. It also increases chemicals that facilitate bonding and compassion. This allows you to go into memories with the relaxation of a Valium or opiate high but with your mental faculties actually sharpened instead of dulled, creating the perfect mental landscape for processing.

Obviously, I don't condone people buying illegal substances which could be adulterated and dangerous. But I wanted to throw this out there and see what people think.

 

[BlueOrange]

It's intriguing. The problem with most substances seems to be the one-sided way they are reported on. Nobody seems to discuss side-effects before prescribing or recommending. Nobody seems to discuss benefits before advising "Just Say No."

Depends on the quality of the trials, I guess. Given the history of MDMA, if it does get approved, it will probably deserve it.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

Hi, I'm not discouraging further discussion, but just wanted to say that this has been brought up before so if you want to read older thoughts on the subject, you can do a search here on the forum and you can find other threads regarding that form of treatment.

 

[Dana1010]

@Solara, yeah, those are from a while back and things are changing rapidly.

 

[Hashi]

The science is like this: MDMA shuts off the amygdala which processes fear and increases activity in the prefrontal cortex which analyses and puts things into context. It also increases chemicals that facilitate bonding and compassion. This allows you to go into memories with the relaxation of a Valium or opiate high but with your mental faculties actually sharpened instead of dulled, creating the perfect mental landscape for processing.

If you believe that processing is mental, analytic and contextual, and that you can process while the amygdala is shut down by a drug, then it sounds perfect.

If you believe that processing has to happen at the level at which the problem arises, maybe not so good.

I've done a lot of processing and that hasn't been mental or analytic. Zero per cent.

Not sure what's meant by contextual.

 

[Dana1010]

@Hashi, I think you should look for the video - it was on The Verge and it was called "Ecstatic States". I don't want to post any links, but you should be able to find it if you search those terms. I just found it moving, and thought the people around here would enjoy it as well.

Not sure what's meant by contextual.

By contextual ("puts things into context" actually) I mean it sorts events out in relation to time and space and other objective measures. You know the way you sometimes feel like your trauma from years ago is happening right now? Well, to put it in context would be to reintegrate it in your memory so you understand that those moments are long over. But if you're referring to the somatic approach to healing trauma, then I respect that a hundred percent.

Above the din and jostling of psychologists, pharmaceutical companies, clinicians and the rest, I give most credence to the voices of actual sufferers. I'm not claiming anything for the treatment personally, but I find the anecdotal evidence of people like the vet in the video to be kind of compelling.

 

[Hashi]

@Dana1010 I'm afraid I can't get information well from videos. It's just my learning style - someone talking is not how I can take things in.

Thanks for what you said about somatic therapy. It is that, and it's also symbolic work which I think also rewires our responses. It's kind of an "actions speak louder than words" thing. For example, I believe that literally walking away from something as a symbolic act of leaving it behind is much more powerful that talking about leaving it behind, and especially if you're talking about leaving it behind while on an ecstatic drug.

As for your thoughts on contextualising, which make sense - yes, somatic therapy every time.

I don't really believe in any true, permanent "processing" that's done with suppressive drugs. Because the knee bone's connected to thigh bone etc etc. Taking one of the bones out of the equation and working on the others is only going to have a limited effect, I think. Other people are welcome to disagree.

 

[Friday]

The thing I liked about MDMA is that it made me about 5 years old mentally & emotionally. Childlike trust and wonder.

It was a nice vacation from a head full of adult responsibilities. Like my personal safety in a crowd of strangers, and being totally unconcerned about said strangers licking me. Not a typo. Any port in a storm, I suppose.

But it also has serious long term side effects (E-tard is the street name for it, like alcoholic wet-brain, there is a point where you aren't just childlike on it, but off of it. More advanced than most low-functioning autistics... But definitely at a fraction of your normal intelligence, perception, awareness, & understanding of the world and people in it).

And there's also a reason why designer drugs use MDMA + something else (aside from the fact that it doesn't stick well to binders without other ions, So you can't press it into tabs without something opposite charged, if it's in a tab, it's a custom blend). MDMA by itself tends to invoke a blank childlike state. Add in another drug to direct emotions, and that's the child you will be for about 10 hours. All by itself? Whatever mood presents itself first. Including tantrums. In grown up bodies that's not funny. But designers usually tip the scales into pleasure seeking (everything feels good on E, including broken bones, bad memories, etc., The other drug just causes you to seek out pleasure). Any drug except cocaine can be mixed with MDMA (cocaine and MDMA cancel each other out) so it's really a crapshoot as to what is in the original mix. It's an incredibly difficult drug to manufacture (amongst other things one needs a hyperbaric chamber), which also makes it very expensive. Meaning even after the designer has made & mixed it with various drugs, distributors and dealers cut & repress or recap often many times over.

I can see why in a therapeutic setting the blank-child who can be directed to feel & manipulated into believing whatever the therapist wants them to believe can be useful.

However... I'm personally not that trusting. At least. Unless I'm on MDMA.

No Fear is an exceptionally dangerous thing to play with.

 

[Dana1010]

I believe that literally walking away from something as a symbolic act of leaving it behind is much more powerful that talking about leaving it behind

How do you literally walk away? Does that mean my hankering to leave town on the next plane out of here is on point?

@FridayJones, I appreciate your insights, but recreational use is a world apart from therapeutic use. If someone suggested we take MDMA every day or even once a week to cope with PTSD, I'd laugh at them. But these doctors are giving patients three doses, a week apart and then kaput - no more. Finished. You should watch the video.

 

[Friday]

It's having used it recreationally that makes me able to see its potential for therapeutic use. However, it's the exact same things which make it useful in a therapeutic setting that mean that I would personally never do so unless I had absolute trust in that therapist. Kids are so easily manipulated, and you can seriously f*ck with a child's mind. Taking MDMA makes your mind like a child's. Leaves it that vulnerable to other people's influence. It doesn't matter if I'm that malleable once, three times, or forever. I'm simply not keen on other people manipulating me. Even to my benefit.

I would rather grok a thing, even if its difficult, than be manipulated into it. Especially not while being made chemically vulnerable to manipulation. Personal preference.

 

[Dana1010]

@FridayJones, wow, you seem really uneasy about therapists. I'm sorry if you've had creepy experiences that led you to that state of anxiety. Anyway, I gather that they're not manipulating you, they're just letting you remember and talk about things in a non freaked-out state. But if it really does make you like a child, I would definitely not take it around anyone I don't trust. On that note, I would sure as hell trust a therapist more than a bunch of strangers in a club.

 

[anthony]

I wouldn't say the past discussion on this is old information at all, as there is no new research changing the positives and negatives of its use. The MDMA used on clients in studies was NEVER to treat PTSD, for starters... it was to relax them only, as stated above, in order for them to enter memories, discuss them and move them aside, without total meltdown, panic and so forth. MDMA has no clinical benefits for PTSD itself, purely only during trauma therapy itself, specifically as outlined.

People need to differentiate these important points when discussing PTSD and MDMA in the same sentence. Otherwise you paint a completely inaccurate picture of its role with those who have PTSD, studies use of MDMA, and thus is not exclusive to PTSD at all, but more exclusive and beneficial for treating severe trauma within a therapeutic atmosphere only.

Taking it outside of therapy to get high, numb pain, etc, just makes the user a drug addict and another complication to withdraw from, let alone the long-term damage it causes, resulting in death.