Addressing Boundaries With A Child.

[Kas_Can_Fly]

I'm having a problem with my younger sister (she's nearly 6 and I'm 24) with whom I live. She has virtually no understanding of boundaries and is also really "cheeky", stubborn and strong-willed for her age. I'm not sure how much is boundary related, how much is being naughty and how much it is being a child. She will mostly listen to our mother, but with me she either attempts to negotiate her way, flat out tells me that I'm wrong or simply ignores me and she won't listen to me. If I attempt to tell her that sometimes she must listen to a grown up or try to enforce pre-determined rules or create a new rule, she walks right over it. If I make a gentle and kind request she ignores it entirely and starts being mouthy with me. If I tell her more sternly, she will listen but if my mum ever hears it, she says I'm being too hard on her. But that's the only way she'll even take in what I'm saying. She literally will not listen - I don't know what to do.

I can't reason with a child like I can an adult and it seems I have no authority or respect. She has said that she doesn't need to listen to me - but we all know that on the rare occasion I have to look after her she does. How do I argue with out arguing? It's not that I want power over her, but I don't know what to do. She's always pushing to get in trouble and none of my other siblings have ever been quite so headstrong. All the time she tells me she knows I can't do things because I'm not well. This undermining to me makes me feel out of control and unheard, it rings true of all the other people who have done this to silence me and abuse me. I realise she's only a child and probably doesn't realise that or have that in mind but I can't help thinking that by allowing her to trash my boundaries repeatedly and against my will, it won't help her grow into a good person. Also, this hurts when I only want to protect her and at least fulfill the duties and role I am supposed to by looking after her. I feel like my mum and nan undermine me in front of her at times and that she is learning that I am not in a position to be listened to, or to demand any respect or responsibility. I don't even believe it's my place to teach her about boundaries, but really, if she's acting this way to me and it's really not ok by me, I should probably at least say something, but I don't know what the right thing to do is. I have no self-assertion skills beyond talking sternly/louder - both of which make me uncomfortable and she knows it.

 

[scout86]

She sounds like a smart kid!

I feel like my mum and nan undermine me in front of her at times and that she is learning that I am not in a position to be listened to

If that's true (and you would certainly know!) your first problem is with THEM. If the kid is being taught that you don't deserve to be respected, your first issue is with the people who are teaching her that.

 

[haltija]

I can't reason with a( child like I can an adult and it seems I have no authority or respect. She has said that she doesn't need to listen to me - but we all know that on the rare occasion I have to look after her she does. How do I argue with out arguing?

I have three kids and my younger brother and I are 15 years apart. (Ahh!) Spend some time with her doing something fun. Once you have her respect and she looks up to you, she will want to look up to you because she will admire you. If it's just constantly you trying to control her without her having much of a bond, that's going to be troublesome. Why should she listen if she doesn't care? Would you be interested in listening to someone that you really feel more controls you than loves you?`

She's also a young girl. For some girls, it's just in them to be a little cruel and competitive, but it's also in them to be compassionate and have regret, so maybe honest communication. By honest communication, I mean less anger and really opening up to her and telling her how it hurts you and why. Maybe ice cream with fun big sister and a heart to heart talk.

There's four personality types: fun all the time, control all of the things, passive peace people and perfect everything people.

She sounds like she might be in the control group, which is me. I love to control all of the things. (Hehehehe.) :roflmao:Control people thrive from being allowed to control, but she just needs to be redirected in a healthier way that will help her improve her life and others around her.

If you can shift her behavior in a way that she won't even notice and encourage her to make more decisions for herself, she could be set on a pretty good path. This isn't entirely a bad thing, because as she gets older, control people eventually learn to get shit done. All they really want out of it is to be appreciated and acknowledged. When little control people don't feel appreciated, they retaliate and destroy everything around them.

Example:

Avoid: "Brush your teeth now."
Try: "It's almost time for bed. You can either brush your teeth first or put on your pajamas first. Which would you like to do today?"

This way she's still taking care of the things she needs to and is listening, but she also feels trusted and is given the opportunity to decide for herself.

 

[Kas_Can_Fly]

She sounds like a smart kid!

She really is!

(and you would certainly know!)

Then I know that it does happen. Not as often as I think so when I'm down or triggered, but it does from time to time subtly and other times less so subtly. The problem then is that it occurs mostly when I am genuinely very unwell or around my Nan or my sister's father. My nan is a narcissist and although the father isn't, he bears many similar self-centered traits that cause my mum to just go along with them. I know that probably sounds weird but she's messed up too from a narcissistic, unsettled and at points violent upbringing.

The only words to describe her when she's around certain people like this is meek and subserviant. She also dissociates which doesn't help. It's my Nan who shuts me up or says I don't know anything, that I'm stupid, that I can't do anything or just says, "Ok Kas, ok, but I wasn't talking to you". Both of us are powerless in front of her and even if I rise to it, the situation only worsens. I am trying to get away from it but I honestly don't know how or what to do.

I can talk to my mum all I like but she can't do anything about it, she knows she has problems from her childhood like social anxiety and dissociation, but also with assertion (amongst many others) but she doesn't want to try therapy. Also she falls for my Nan's tricks again and again and again - it's ridiculous actually. Like in so many other avenues of my life. I feel powerless.

Spend some time with her doing something fun.

Thanks, we do creative things together - she likes me to show her how to draw things in steps, play board games or watch stuff together. Also I bought her, our mum and me and year long ticket to go to the zoo. There are other things too, but really I'm not down there all day every day with her because I really am not doing too great.


Sometimes she will refuse to play with me because she says I look like a boy (because I have short hair and don't wear dresses) - I can totally see this is a kid thing and I'm not offended!There are times where she says things like "Well I'm not going to do *what ever I just told her to/not to* because you don't know what you're talking about" that I'm pretty sure she's just copying but it still hurts. There are times when she is deliberately rude and I still know not to take that personally. Then there are times when I ask her to keep her hands to my self when for some unknown reason she decides to start playing with my boobs (totally innappropriate, but I'm sure it's just kid fascination) or is trying everything she can to cause me physical pain without hitting (because she knows that's wrong), including jumping on me with her knees or running around trying to push me over. Asserting that this isn't ok by simply saying "Please could you not" elicits responses that start "uuuuuuuhhh, well I can if I like" and trying harder to assert that this isn't ok because it's hurting (or triggering but I don't say that) me and suddenly I'm being too hard on her.

She still refuses to shut the door when she's in the toilet and makes conversation with you if you're in there. She has even opened the door on other people in the toilet, because they don't need it. Thankfully that was corrected, but the conversations still go on - like boldy walking up to the door and shouting loudly "Uuuuh Kas, What are you doing in there?!" :rolleyes:. I don't know what is normal for a child to respect and what isn't but I'm not the only one who has commented on her lack of respect and even disrespect for boundaries. When another sibling was home over christmas she was quite shocked about how intrusive and rude the little one could be. But only towards me does she get this aggressive and if it were anyone other than a small child, I'd say abusive nature.

She sounds like she might be in the control group, which is me.

Hahaha, you got that one right ;)

control people eventually learn to get shit done.

I can definitely see that and I know it from other life experiences. She's very unlike me and my mother or my other siblings who are not in this control group!
No offense to her father but he is incredibly unaware of his actions in relation to other people, as well as loud, bossy (bordering on abusive at points), completely self-centered and opinionated, he also doesn't think very highly of me. His daughter is, well, just that - she takes after him. I think the thing is that he has seriously triggered me and even stood over me with his fists raised once - hardly trauma by comparison of the other stuff I've been through, but I've got a deep distrust of him, I see him in her and it scares me - at the same time I am protective over her.

Avoid: "Brush your teeth now."
Try: "It's almost time for bed. You can either brush your teeth first or put on your pajamas first. Which would you like to do today?"

Thanks for the example I can try to use that/learn from it.

On the flip side however she can also be really nice and sweet sometimes, she's not all bad, I know this rant sounds like it but she's great in many ways too. I think my stress cup doesn't recover fast enough! I also see from what I've written that I'm tying a lot of things that aren't her to her, she's not the problem her father/our nan is etc, etc. Mostly I was just looking for pointers, I think I'll discuss it with my therapist too.

Thanks! :)

 

[Kas_Can_Fly]

For example just this second she came into my room to give me a hug and kiss goodnight - sweet thing. But she also moved some of my things and closed a part of my fish-tank lid - not the end of the world but it buzzes. I said thanks but could she leave it open because it buzzes and her response is "but I couldn't hear it", I said that it only does it sometimes, but never mind - it's being good now, run along to mummy and she argues "uhhh well you shouldn't leave it open, it's supposed to be made closed, you've got to learn better". She was called away and it was nothing really but I don't want conflict or argument - I think that because of this she can tell I avoid it. She constantly challenges my mum and gets away with a lot (far more than we did) but at least she can if needed tell her off in some way, but don't can't nor do I want to. I feel very conflicted.

 

[scout86]

and it was nothing really

No, I don't think it IS "nothing". I think you have a right to be concerned, partly because it's aggravating for you and partly because it's not good for her either.

I'm not sure what's going on. It's WAY out of any of my areas of expertise. But I'm sure it's not good and I suspect they're raising the next generation of narcissist. The big problem there being that the narcissists in her life aren't going to see it as a problem. You might want to check out some good parenting books or other resources. I'm afraid you're probably the only really good influence she has in the house!

As a general rule, in "training" anybody or anything, you aim to make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult. Or the right thing rewarding and the wrong thing not. There are probably lots of things that she finds "rewarding". I'm guessing a feeling of control and power is one of them. (Unfortunately!) Have you noticed any pattern to when she's rude and when she's nice?

Sometimes she will refuse to play with me because she says I look like a boy (because I have short hair and don't wear dresses) -

That honestly strikes me as a little strange. LOTS of people have short hair and/or don't wear dresses. (Does she wear dresses all the time?) I'm not saying she's not entitled to her opinion, if that really IS her opinion. I'm not around kids that much, but I've never heard one say anything like that. These days, "wearing dresses" is hardly mandatory. And, she "thinks you look like a boy" but she wants to play with your boobs? Does that make any sense to you, because it doesn't make any to me?

She's growing up in a kind of dysfunctional home, what you're seeing, I'm sure, is the result of that. I hope you can find some resources to help you deal with her and maybe help her at the same time.

 

[haltija]

No offense to her father but he is incredibly unaware of his actions in relation to other people, as well as loud, bossy (bordering on abusive at points), completely self-centered and opinionated, he also doesn't think very highly of me. His daughter is, well, just that - she takes after him.

Gah! My brother's dad is a complete d*ck. I totally understand this and for a very long time, my brother (now 12) was very snarky with me when he didn't have time with me. Do you think she could be suffering from her fathers judgments and acting out due to insecurities? I really think if you had time for a heart-to-heart, she might have a lot of things buried that could be brought to the surface.

The hair thing I wouldn't take seriously or worry about too much. My nine year old has short hair and she would always say, "Mom, your hair is too long. Why is your hair so long? Why won't you cut it?" (She's always had short hair.) Young girls will tend to compare long hair to girls and short hair to boys, because... well, look at all of the cartoons! There's not many rock and roll Disney princesses.

It's just preference or what they're used to and part of that little control thing. Kids at this age are still learning how to speak to other people and what's normal conversation and what's not. I agree that the boob thing is a little odd, but kids tend to pick things up from school or playmates. Look in any children's school library and flip through the books and there will be pen drawings of anatomically incorrect cartoons all over the place. Potty humor.

It sounds like your mom is tired. The fact that she's acknowledging that there's an issue (fish tank, for example) but then shifting the solution in your direction, to where you're the oldest and therefore there's nothing to do about it ... that, at least to me, shows some avoidance tendencies. I don't want to say that's laziness, but I wouldn't doubt that it's fatigue.

You're 24? I don't know if you're the oldest, but 20+ years of straight parenting without much of a mental break in between, I could see that causing some brain fog or difficulty setting priorities from a mental standpoint. Parenting can be really rough and it's not unusual for moms to start drifting off to la-la land, especially when they don't take time for themselves. It kind of goes along with that mothers take the oxygen mask on the plane, THEN the child, type of thing.

 

[ghotiff]

I agree with the above that the best way to get her to do what you want (ie respect you and your boundaries) is to form a positive relationship with her so she wants to please you. Easier said than done, but possible.

 

[illusionist]

Yep, form a positive relationship and stick to boundaries that you BOTH follow, that will also help to gain respect. I had a friend who was trying to instil boundaries and rules with her kid.....one being mealtimes. She stood in front of me munching a chocolate bar..kid wanted one and was told " you will wait until after we have had dinner" then wondered why the kid kicked off?? Even when I pointed it out to her later after her complaining about the kids behaviour, she still didn't get it....."I'm the adult here so I can do what I want".......doesn't work like that.