Structural Dissociation?

[joeylittle]

Ah - I just now noticed that you aren't a premium member, @shimmerz, so I'll need to do the editing for you anyway (as your editing window has closed for the posts you've made so far).

I'll do my best to retain critical information. And you can just remember this exchange going forward. As I said, it is perfectly fine to quote limited amounts, ideally capturing the main point of a quote, or to summarize longer passages into your own words. I do appreciate this is a large subject, and of course it's always fine to be working out things in a thread.

 

[shimmerz]

Thanks so much @joeylittle. I have copied and pasted the information into a word document so any time you need to remove it is fine and I appreciate your having given me the heads up on it. :)

 

[Pencil]

@Kaia there's no need to apologize. We experience and handle these things differently.

Sequential dissociation may also include an EP that remains attached, in a regressive way, to abusive and/or neglectful caretakers.

It took me a few decades to understand that I go into romantic relationships based on an EP attachment. The ANP seems to be utterly incapable of forming any kind of attachment, especially romantic / sexual ones. In fact, the ANP seems to be asexual. This had led me into disastrous relationships with people the EP was pathologically attached to, but whom the ANP did not necessarily even like, and in a few instances, actively loathed. Sex has therefor always been an issue.

I think this is also why I was never able to actually focus on trauma in the trauma diary. The ANP has distance, and doesn't want to dwell. The EPs go into a panic state, and are not articulate or rational.

 

[shimmerz]

Agree with @Pencil on this one @Kaia. I had to stay away from the thread because it spun me around (and I started the posting - lol - go figure). I think we all have very different ways of dealing.

I go into romantic relationships based on an EP attachment

I had not thought of this. It makes perfect sense. This is why I am all over the board with so many types of relationships, including my sons. Eegad! I don't quite see a way out of that one. They all seem to be 'persecutors' somehow. So perhaps all that time I felt like my ANP was in control (because by rights I seemed to have it all together), my EP was sabotaging me in the background in stealth mode.

For myself I am seeing a timeline (45 years I was okay, 8 years I was not) of ANP and EP function. In reality D-day came because my EP was working against me all along. It wasn't the 'you need to die' EP that has emerged the last decade or so, but instead the 'you can't trust anyone' EP. The one that smiled at everyone while inside was screaming 'when are you going to turn on me' and the defenses that go along with that thought pattern.

oy vey!

 

[shell]

I feel like my EP (who struggled to stay alive in the most primitive way) has a death wish. It is a passive one (like wandering outside to freeze), but she is fighting against my ANP, who actually wants to live. So the above quote is not necessarily a given. I feel like the 'system' will somehow keep alive but it is making my ANP life a holy living hell.

Does this even make sense?

Yes to me it does.

I have been told I have secondary structural dissociation, and I totally relate to the EP with a death wish, triggered into feeling abandonment or rejection, the death wish starts and I can be totally rational, functional one moment (ANP) and a suicidal (EP) takes over who needs to run and hide, isolate and then wishes to die or believes they deserve to die the next minute even though I am not remotely depressed.

I now have much more control of this EP but it took me along time to even recognize it. In my journalling my T and I were able to clearly see when the part is out, my writing changes, how I think about myself changes and it's like I have been invaded by an alien. My ANP now cares for the EP when triggered, I think I have another part who is also a protector, as when I journal and touch on something that is very, very distressing or become seriously suicidal something takes over and I fall instantly asleep, even in the middle of a word or sentence or action especially when I am journalling.

 

[shimmerz]

These signals that you speak about are very helpful to me, thank you. This is what I am hoping for, some signs to look for as I am not under the care of a T right now. Each of the things you speak above @shell, are things that I have noticed as well. The wanting to die without a sign of depression is the most disturbing to me. I fall asleep as well instantly when triggered, although now I have a little more of a window for that and can get up and move around to stop it.

May I ask, how does your ANP care for your EP? What does that look like?

 

[shell]

I spent a lot of time learning about self compassion, and journalling to understand the reasons behind my self hatred, and self attacking that really spirals out of control when it happens. I don't know but if you journal, it can really help to show the patterns.

My previous T wanted to read my old journals, but before I gave them him, I read through them because I was concerned about any really graphic or embarrassing details in them, . It was the most eye opening thing I did in 3 years of therapy, I already knew about my structural dissociation because another T had witnessed the switch.

I could see the EP part myself, I could see how illogical it was, and how when triggered what was really happening. I have come to understand much more about the way this EP thinks and behaves from reading my old posts.

If you don't journal I really suggest you start because when you switch back into ANP (and you thinking rationally) it is really revealing, I don't lose time or anything, but I am not really as self aware, and it takes several minutes for me to recognize it, before it took days or hours.

If you have old journals read them, look for changes in hand writing, anger and any signs that aren't how you normally think.

Now when I am triggered, I will still panic, get angry, run and hide, but now because I am very concious the ANP sooths the very out of control child, much the way I would sooth my own child if she were hurt or angry, I parent the part, kindly and compassionately. I can stop the death roll spiral out of control in about 5 to 10 minutes, a bit like having conversation with yourself, but a postive supportive one.

 

[shimmerz]

I am reading that somatoform reactions are held in the EP rather than the ANP. They speak about 'dissociative attacks', which is a new phrase to me, although I do suffer from them. They are, from what I have read, a recording of trauma events displayed through body posturing etc. The information is contained about half way down in the following article.

http://www.trauma-pages.com/a/vdhart-2000.php

These articles are so involved they are driving me crazy!

I am wondering if each of you suffer from somatoform issues and whether these can be used to determine when the EP is 'out front'?

When I read this passage,
While his neck was thus bowed by the burden, a shell-explosion buried him. In the light of other cases we may suppose with some confidence that, at the moment the shell fell, he made some violent movement of the head to the left, in order to free himself of his dangerous burden. When he recovered consciousness the tic set in. It was thus a fixation of a bodily attitude and movement of the moment of the emotional shock [and this fixation marks the EP].

The mirror box by Norman Doidge comes to mind.

https://www.myptsd.com/threads/norman-doidge-the-mirror-box.48838/

 

[joeylittle]

These articles are so involved they are driving me crazy!

If it helps, remember that is because Structural Dissociation itself is a theory, not a fact. So anything written about it, including the many offshoots, are generally very detailed as they strive to support a hypothesis. Theories describe the "why" and "how" of things, but are not absolute enough as to provide a scientific prediction. So, whether someone will end up at the primary, secondary, or tertiary level of dissociation (for example) is not something that structural dissociation can predict or "prove".

Don't get me wrong - it is a very smart theory, and there is a reason why it has stuck around; its probably the most comprehensive way to talk about dissociation, personality, and trauma all in one bundle. But neuro-psych theory as written by scientists can get very dense. Just wanted to give you a context for why its challenging material. It is ultimately meant to provide a system by which one can understand and talk about how one has ended up, rather than how one can or should proceed, or what one might become.

 

[Eleanor]

you suffer from somatoform issues and whether these can be used to determine when the EP is 'out front'?

I do not, but my problems are from neglect, not trauma so that might make a difference. My H, on the other hand clearly exhibited somatoform issues - I could tell if he was in an episode by how he walked when he got up. He carried his body differently. (This also contributes to the "demon possession" impression.) I have often wondered whether a significant portion of his GI issues are not also related to somatoform issues - when he is doing better emotionally his guts are ALOT better. In fact, early GI symptoms are one of the cues he uses to notice when he is getting triggered.

With respect to children, it is worth noting that the emotional reaction system that engages with children is CARE - and is distinct, in fact as a discrete subsystem, from PANIC/attachment. Whereas PANIC is mediated by opiods and primes for fear (adrenaline) and creates freeze or flight reactions, induces scanning behavior and can result in total chaotic disorganization when overloaded, it has a positive face in a sense of tranquility, well-being and euphoria. CARE on the other hand is the emotional system that primes nurturing behavior, feeding, grooming protection of young. It is mediated by oxytocin, and can also generate a state of calm satisfaction. It generates trust, and increases specific bonding between individuals, or rather, loyalty. This may account for why I have always felt a kind of ...lack in my relationship with my daughter. CARE works fine. Attachment... is spotty. Which is strange because I've always attached very strongly indeed to animals - but I kept (keep) waiting for the ... rush? of that with her... and it doesn't happen. It has kind of stopped happening with animals as well, and my attachment to my existing animals... seems to have decreased. I think my brain really did rewire during pregnancy.

The other system that seems to be weirdly integrated in me is PLAY. It is totally integrated into intellectual stuff - that is where I mostly play, but although I was good at play as a kid... not so much now. I am terrible at playing with my daughter, there is just ALOT of resistance in me. It is a real struggle to stay engaged at all, and I think it must be because I have a PLAY EP, At least for all non-intellectual forms of PLAY.

I'll have to watch some but at a first take, I'd say that when I "switch" there are distinctive motor activities... I've labeled the thing "dithering" but I'll think some more about what the actual movements and physical sensations are. I notice the attentional shifts...

Hypothesis: One of the functions of emotional response systems is to learn about the world via experience and then calibrate themselves to respond effectively (most bang for the energy "buck" so to speak) to the environment. If an experience has no positive resolution... that would leave the system "stuck" on high activation, yes? It is only when the system can (insert explanation of how brains turn experiences into memories here...;)) process the experience and turn it into a memory that it can then proceed on to the next.

It helped me a lot to give up the idea that people are born with a unified consciousness. If people are born with a bunch of distinct consciousnesses that are integrated as a function of development in an experiential context the whole thing makes much more sense to me.

We are not primarily resilient beings, we are adaptive.

Sorry this is so rambly...

 

[greenleaf]

I am finding this thread incredibly helpful, thanks so much for all the insight here.

My adult coping seems to be really good, but has also had the benefit of many years of therapy, unfortunately therapy that did not include anything about ANPs and EPs, so I had a lot of trouble explaining some things. I actually thought my Ts would think I was really crazy, so never brought certain things up. However the therapists were good people, and I did learn some trust and more about who not to trust, with some big unfortunate gaps... I became much more able to tolerate some strong emotions, like anger at my abuser, for instance... Having the right model or theory is incredibly important; I think what it is helping me with, is that (my ANP?) understands better what is going on, isn't as scared by the weird EP things that formerly had no explanation, just came out of nowhere, and can work with my T to figure out helpful things for the EP(s). Theoretically. (I still bounce into "this isn't real" feelings...)

Finding PLAYful people was actually the first time I really bonded with a group, and I got through college partly by developing connections with such wonderful folks. I had trouble accepting CARE though on levels that touched trauma.

I think that my adult self tends to use PLAY as a coping mechanism for emotions that come up, including the (subset of?) childhood traumas that are pretty integrated in some ways. Also I have found CARE to be incredibly worthwhile though I had no idea until pretty recently that I seem to have one or more pretty unintegrated EPs, and directing caring toward my emotional parts is much harder than directing it at cats, dogs, people I like, etc. ...if I try and emotionally connect to caring for what might be an EP in a certain way, my brain kinda decides that whole train of thought should go away and I'll fuzz out...

Re. somatic stuff...I seem to have connection to some old emotions more in my left side; the muscles were very very tight, and lacked deep body feeling, in certain areas in my shoulders, neck, left jaw, etc. especially. Those areas still don't feel quite coordinated the same way as the other side, and I lose track of all that feeling still if I'm coping with "normal reality" doing something that takes a lot of adult focus.

Massage has been incredibly helpful with my muscle issues; it is what got me realizing in the first place that I wasn't feeling certain muscle areas on my left, the same way as I do on my right. I could feel the skin, and vague pressure, but not the deeper feeling or the sense that my body actually extended in there in space. An interesting thing that might be related to some kind of integration: I found that when my massage therapist put some pressure on those not-feeling muscles plus the same ones on my right side, at the same time, it really helped something; I could start to notice some of the not-there areas without getting as overwhelmed as lots of pressure on those spots alone would cause. The spots would first itch a tiny bit, then more and more; some kind of deep muscle itch.

This is all a work in progress... however I think I may be avoiding worse muscle troubles via this massage & physical therapy work plus a habit of lots of exercise -- was very fortunate to have a good role model in that area of self-care, pretty early.

One thing that folks here haven't mentioned (or probably it's here and I just missed it) that feels very related: feeling safe, and how that allows the integration -- because my sense is that it's slowly helping me to integrate some stuff... physical safety, physical sensations are more integrated?

 

[Chava]

Idea of more than one ANP in DID is interesting.

My pain became an issue when I felt really vulnerable and too exhausted to keep up my strong outward persona. I became more quiet and distant even among colleagues I've known for years. I dropped out of things where I had been a strong voice. I just felt exhausted and some pull to hide out and survive quietly without anyone finding out how messed up I felt. I do wonder if the pain relates somewhat to these parts (emotional or EP and ANP) trying to synthesize into some kind of whole. I needed different support and also felt I needed different friends (haven't found them yet). It hasn't been working out so well, I feel very stuck in some hellish in-between. What it means day to day is massively isolating myself because I want to be true to myself or some form of emotional life but I have no f*cking clue how that relates to the rest of the world. I just have to hide out.