Why Can't Some Of Us Talk On The Forum?

[joeylittle]

Here is the simplest statement I can make: if you have PTSD, you absolutely have cognitive biases.

For instance, asserting that all symptoms should rightly be attributed to cognitive bias ignores much of the strong emerging evidence around the physiology of trauma, like the effects of long term stress on the body or allostatic load.

Just being the careful reader - I do not believe @anthony is saying all symptoms should be attributed to cognitive bias. He's clearly saying that cognitive bias will be present in PTSD.
@DeathRay, your invoking of the physiological is valid, but it does not exclude cognitive bias as an issue for PTSD sufferers.

It's not either/or, in other words.

 

[rainy_daze]

[I have cross posted :facepalm:]

I know we are all in different stages of healing. But we are all fighting this monster and I find no empathy or compassion sometimes. And also I feel rejection. Even posting this is scary. But here I go.

[DLMURL="https://www.myptsd.com/c/members/22986/"]@Notsowild[/DLMURL] Please don't feel afraid to post, you're always wanted and listened to here :hug:

^ Original topic reminder.

@Notsowild I hope that some sleep and a forum break gives you much needed rest, and that you can come back and read the responses which have been said to help you through this. I'm reminded a little of a thread from last year: https://www.myptsd.com/threads/scared-to-post.46498/

From that thread:

I'm all for... let it flow and deal with the aftermath. PTSD can't be contained and reasoned with, so when it comes to PTSD... I just settle to raw honesty and expression.

^ That really helped me. I stopped taking so long to edit my posts before having the guts to hit 'post reply'.

So :hug:s or :coffee::coffee:s for you if you want them Notsowild. And I agree with @Beachlife09 - you are listened to here, even if it doesn't always seem that way to you. [Edit: Maybe no coffees if you're not sleeping well!]

 

[joeylittle]

Anyway -- 'one true way' advocates and people who are very attached to the idea that sufferers are solely and entirely responsible for making their brains work as socio-normatively as possible, the kind of aggressive, victim blaming, insistence that it's our job to be neurotypical

This is exaggeration. No such assertion was made.

And the only reason I'm commenting on this is actually not at all to argue - it's because of this:

But I can tell you all that there are attitudes here that foster an environment that represses marginal voices. If you assume a level playing field in an unfair world, you will oppress those already given less of a platform for their voice. That's one of the reasons I feel a lack of strong moderation is unwise, but that's the case here and that's how it is.

I swear to you, for every member who is a "cut to the quick and express myself" kind of communicator, there is also a "I wonder how it is that both these people are missing each other - let me see if I can help" communicator.

Why do we come to these strange internet places? For many different reasons. But one ancillary gain, I believe, is in this: when you put your thoughts/feelings/experiences/actions into words, you learn more about them than you did before you started. And this is why it is actually valuable for people to communicate in the individual ways they do, without being censored.

While sometimes it can create a space where the quiet feel quieter - and I'm actually one of those people, though you'd likely not know it, I've learned to speak my mind by being here - it is the responsibility of each individual to voice their thoughts. I do not believe we can change other people, only ourselves.

And so, just as you have in this thread, and others @DeathRay - you've been really eloquent, quite expressive, and not at all silenced. You have felt uncomfortable, and you have shown struggle, but you've still said your point of view.

I think it's what we are here for. And it's what I wish the quiet of the forum would challenge themselves to more often. NOT to be "neurotypical", normal, what have you - just to start to learn that what they have to say matters. It matters because it matters to them, and that is where the value is.

 

[anthony]

@DeathRay, the silliest part of reading your response to me personally, is that I agree with nearly everything you say when you relate trauma and diverse therapies to treat it. No argument in that, totally agree. Can you now read what I said, pushing trauma therapy out of your mind? I'm not talking about trauma therapy.

I was thinking about changing my user title... but recent discussions... I think its very applicable still.

 

[anthony]

I apologise for any way I have contributed to derailing this thread

Threads derail... its all good, so please don't apologise for something that naturally occurs. Its only if it pisses the OP off that a new thread is typically created. I tend to find threads start, then take a course with discussion...

 

[wyrd_dragon]

it is the responsibility of each individual to voice their thoughts. I do not believe we can change other people, only ourselves.

I'm viewing this through an intersectional lens and a systemic one. It' s a lens that acknowledges differing intersections of oppression/privilege. One that firmly asserts that words, language, and behavior in communities matter when it comes to providing space for silenced/marginalized voices. One that asserts that space needs to be provided in order for disempowered people to feel able to speak without fear of violence (verbal, physical, social or otherwise) and that that space is created when we have an understanding of what constitutes violence. That it's not the sole responsibility of those marginalised, silenced voices to seek to provide space or 'just speak up'.

Essentially, we're coming from very differing points of view and your stance is one I intellectually reject, though I understand it and it's very common. No amount of discussion will change that, as it's central to my activism and to my work. No angst here, just letting you know.

 

[wyrd_dragon]

Can you now read what I said, pushing trauma therapy out of your mind? I'm not talking about trauma therapy.

I can understand your stance and I agree that PTSD and other disorders include an element of cognitive bias. I think, as CBT was initially brought up in a trauma context (and this forum is, itself, a huge trauma context) I assumed you were speaking about it as it applies to PTSD, and therefore in the context of trauma. I'm really really uncomfortable to keep talking about this because I don't want to derail further or upset to OP, who i know hasn't been doing well. But i wanted to let you know I understand your frustration and how easy it is to be misread in these situations, and wanted to let you know I've got no ill will or upset toward you.

 

[rainy_daze]

Q: Why can't some of us talk on the forum?

A: Fear of rejection, fear of not fitting in, feeling unheard, not finding the desired empathy/compassion sought... [there will be more answers somewhere. I think it is an individual thing, although those are the ones I've noticed said here]

I think I'm out of this thread I spent so long reading because it is off topic, but @Notsowild I do hope to read a thread of yours again one day. I remember things have been tough for you with work and trying to recover from your childhood. I might not say it, but I do understand it. Recovering from childhood trauma = no easy task. Getting bullied/harassed at work = I've been there, and I wasn't strong enough to stay. [Also, that is so sweet of your son :) wanting to protect you and stick up for you. I hope you can protect you and stick up for yourself too :tup:]

*Cheering on Notsowild*. Be brave and post. And do read the thread link I posted. You're not alone.

@joeylittle I liked the last part about what people have to say matters.

@anthony I sometimes forget just how much a topic can develop into other discussions, however I think my brain is too fried now :sleep: to contribute much to the current debate.

I learned a lot from everyone posting, thank you all for contributing and @Notsowild for being brave and honest. *walks away from thread*.

 

[wyrd_dragon]

Threads derail... its all good, so please don't apologise for something that naturally occurs. Its only if it pisses the OP off that a new thread is typically created.

Thank for this - I do spend a fair bit of time in quite heavily moderated communities, where derails can be a real issue, so it's good to know I don't need to be quite as vigilant.

 

[anthony]

People often get philosophical, from my experience, when it comes to absolutes. Absolutes exist, yet some debate that existence and will attempt to flaw the logic presented to them with such responses as have been given here. In many things there are no absolutes, yet in some there are. For example, mathematics is outside of time, so if I said 2+2=4, that is an absolute. It is not affected by time, space or any other variable. Yet I guarantee there will be people here that refute that as absolute.

Mental health has absolutes... as do many facets of life. Obviously there are far more variables than absolutes though.

 

[joeylittle]

I'm viewing this through an intersectional lens and a systemic one. It' s a lens that acknowledges differing intersections of oppression/privilege.

Ah - this actually makes lots of sense to me. We actually probably agree on the need for that lens more than you realize. But I am not in agreement that you can use that lens simultaneously with a mental health support group structure, which is basically what we are - I see that as pragmatic, and it's informed by my experience in various mental health group settings.

We are a really big group meeting - but still, that's it. And it's one that does not have a therapist as a leader (the person responsible for creating that space). It's pure support group, peer-to-peer.

AA does a good job of managing the mental health minus therapy leader thing. But in a mental health support group that is totally peer-to-peer and without a guiding dogma (I mean that without critical implication), you'll get the messy things. There's value in it, I do believe, but not for everybody all the time - anyway, that's the lens I personally use for this place, because factually, we do not have trained therapists (neutral parties endowed with leadership and training), we kind of can't mandate the level of support you describe.

But I think it's cool you're here and adding your voice to all this. Also -thanks for the info about where you are coming from. It is really interesting and helpful!

 

[Rumors]

@anthony said, "Mental health has absolutes... as do many facets of life. Obviously there are far more variables than absolutes though."

I think people's perceptions play the largest role in what the variables are. Perception is 99% of the game. I have found that when I am having the most symptoms, fact plays such a small role in where I am and perception plays the larger role. Swinging it back around to the OP's original question, why can't some of us talk on the forum? Because the perception is that there may be cliques, people will judge, you won't be heard, you may not be believed, and you certainly won't be validated.
My apologies @Notsowild if I have made you feel any of the above. I have certainly been in that ptsd perception mode where I haven't slept, I feel like I can do nothing right, and everything is chaos.