Just Watched American Sniper. !

[Deleted member 12723]

I am so sorry that it triggered you. I cannot wait to see it because I like Clint Eastwood movies.

A word, mabe not watching these movies for a while until you can heal and recover some more or never seeing these movies again for you. Hugs.

 

[anthony]

Just watched it... fabulous movie. Recommended for all combat veterans on how to reflect being a solider and get working on yourself for the better of your spouse, family, friends and society, once out of the military.

 

[TonyG]

I went to see it with my son and we both enjoyed it, He was a amazing soldier, such a shame he died when he was trying to help others.

 

[RussH]

The news reported today that his, Kyle's, murderer may not have PTSD as was first reported.
His trial starts this month and it is a capital case which means the death penalty could be imposed.

 

[Eleanor]

I have very mixed feelings about this movie. Specifically that it is like, half a movie. Kyle comes back in terrible shape, has one conversation with a shrink where he says, "I'm fine." and starts helping other vets and then all is happiness and normality.

Right. Like that happens.

"Soft pedaled" PTSD doesn't half describe it. Given the troubles vets having even having PTSD taken seriously in the US, (never mind admitting that they have it) This really pisses me off. "No I'm not worried about this" and "I'm totally fine" are generally not helpful approaches to PTSD. And apparently his wife just "gets over it" with no muss or fuss as well.

Eastwood generally does a better job.

Gripping movie tho.

 

[Friday]

@Eleanor... For some it really is okay.

My caveat is that I haven't watched the movie. Don't intend to for some time. But just speaking as to reality... Some people really are just fine. Others may develop PTSD later. I always loved working with snipers. Some of the most down to earth, grounded people I've ever met, as a whole. Mad control freaks, but also incredibly patient. Some of the best dads I've ever met. Again, as a rule, in addition to patience most of the ones I've known seem to have this inordinate ability to trust. The kind that's so strong it bleeds out onto those around them... Inspiring trust and calm in kind. (I've also known a few who were just the opposite: untrusting, high strung, impatient, edgy. But most of the ones I've known well & worked with are like human Valium. Ahhhh. Tranquilo.)

I don't know what the PTSD rate is amongst the specialty, but I'd suspect it's fairly low. Not just because of the psych profiling that goes into getting the job, and the personalities that tend to shoot for it; but the units themselves are usually tight knit enough (and given so much leeway/ freedom to act) to help fend off a lot of the ancillary bullshit that makes shit worse. Meaning even if the symptoms are present? They're managed really well. I was never special forces. But the time I spent working with them? Some of the best experiences of my life. The medic & air crew didn't have the cover they did, nor the same protocols to follow once we schlepped back home. We were housed in barracks right all with everyone else (force recon was on the other side of the base), working and training with everyone else (combat operational or not), etc...so when we were back on base? Always a huge shock to the system. So. Much. Bullshit. Most of us were getting in trouble left and right, spinning out of control faster and faster. I don't know if we'd been handled differently if it could have prevented PTSD, or just delayed the inevitable. Never will.

As far as spouses go? Military spouses, good ones, are a breed apart. Many people simply cannot handle the role of a military spouse... And it's a true role; one that requires courage, and strength, the ability for independent action, adaptability, crazy support, and a whole lotta chutzpah. The ones who can't handle it? Aren't suited to the job? Tend to divorce early on (at the worst possible moment, ugh), or their active duty spouse doesn't reup (re-enlist) and they both leave the military. But the good ones? Holy cow. Amazing men & women, who are just as vital to the performance of combat units as anything. No fuss, no muss? LOL. Could almost be a motto. True that. Masters of the art of nonchalance, and taking shit from no one, but with unswerving devotion & loyalty.

 

[Sighs]

I think there have been some other threads about how PTSD is portrayed in the media. It almost always is portrayed as this kind of short term thing that just goes away on its own. I suppose that may be true for some people but sadly not the majority.

Have you seen that statistic on people coming out of comas without brain damage? Something like 98% of TV characters who go into a coma wake up just fine. In real life the figure is something like 2%.

 

[Sighs]

@FridayJones - at the risk of being yelled down for over- generalising - a lot of the stuff I have read about combat PTSD talks about the "distance" as a factor. Eg: an aircraft bombardier can cause the death of thousands but he is physically removed from it - an infantry grunter who has run out of ammunition and has fixed his bayonet may only cause the death of one man at a time but he's literally staring each of them in the eyes. (And to acknowledge a couple of previous threads - yes I know its not (only) the killing or (only) the exposure to death that can cause PTSD - sadly trauma comes in many forms.)

(See Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's book On Killing.)

 

[Eleanor]

To clarify, I wasn't talking about snipers in particular (I've met two in real life, as you say, a breed apart) and FWIW they get the "incredibly tough" part of SEAL training right, but actually kind of downplay it if you know what SEALS actually do. (Spent a long time in San Diego..) And the movie makes them kind of look like jerks - which is TOTALLY wrong. Special forces guys are generally... really really outstanding individuals.

Some people really are just fine. Others may develop PTSD later.

My family is a military family. My son in law Army (career) - so I know a lot of people are fine (he is one, actually a tour in Afghanistan seems to have cured his lifelong insomnia. Go figure.) So I know (the basics at least) about PTSD etiology post-combat. And I speak from the point of view of ongoing relationships with young people currently serving and deploying. What you say is absolutely true. What is NOT true in my experience (and in the literature as far as I can tell) is that people with full blown PTSD symptoms just spontaneously get better.

My problem with the movie is that it does a great job of portraying the kind of emotional and dare I say moral difficulties that repeated "hot" combat tours can create. In the movie (which compresses a HELL of a lot of time into a short space) what it shows of his return shows someone way out into PTSD. Not the usual movie flashbacks, but a very nice depiction of hyper vigilance and reactivity. And the wife articulates very well the feeling of so many PTSD supporters that the person they knew isn't there anymore, but the idea that they can come back. Looking at what is in the movie and knowledge of actual PTSD cases, the trajectory of this story at the end... goes off the rails IMHO.

That said, the advice to vets suffering from PTSD to "go out and save the soldiers that are still here" is great advice. And goodness knows spending time with other combat vets IS a really really good thing. Probably the best thing actually. But it is not a panacea, and it is not anything close to the whole story of PTSD, and the damage it can do to families.

Military spouses, good ones, are a breed apart.

They are that. Best friend in San Diego a Navy wife. Daughter an Army wife. Both excellent ones.

Before my daughter married her husband we talked long and hard about what she was signing herself, and their kids, up for. Unlike many wives, she walked in eyes wide open. I am so impressed by their ability to work through all the very difficult stuff that active duty brings up. Very advanced practice indeed.

Really my concern about the movie is that it leaves one with the impression that PTSD doesn't need attention - at least not if you are a badass hero-type. And that for the vast majority of (very young) men who go into combat, who as a rule don't admit ANY kind of weakness or injury (Shake it off son, you're fine.) Or believe in it in each other (because that wouldn't work in a combat situation) that this is a bad bad story to leave them with.


Also, as a long time Clint Eastwood follower and admirer, I can't help but have the feeling that... this was not the movie he set out to make. The acting is AWESOME, the pacing is superb, it is a great film technically, and the script is... really weird. Compared to his stuff from Unforgiven on this script is... inexplicable. He doesn't do hagiography as a rule. It seems like it started out one movie, and ended up totally different. The ending seems really really rushed. The big combat scene totally dominates the second half of the film... not Eastwood's storytelling style at all. Kyle died in Feb. of 2013, Eastwood picked up the project in August of that year, and it was released in Nov. 2014. Eastwood says it is supposed to be about what happens to people after they come home from war - which is the shortest and least developed part of the film. Strange. Maybe at the end of the day Tara Kyle (who I admire very much by the way) ... just didn't want so much of their lives and struggles told on the big screen. I would totally get and respect that. The thing is so very very fraught, and I'm not sure I would trust even Clint Eastwood to get it "right." Or maybe I wouldn't even want to know what he would make of it. In any case, it is not there.

Anyhow, it is a good movie in the sense of a gripping narrative.
It is extremely well acted.
If the point is to get people more concerned about what happens to folks when they come back from war, I think it doesn't do that.
It pretty much buys into all the happy "just get over it" stories.
It is also incredibly unsympathetic to the genuine victims of war - the civilians. But that is another story.
And that is why it is really disappointing to me.

 

[anthony]

Right. Like that happens.

It happens, but yes, I think trying to describe it in a movie... they may have taken a few liberties and cut things short for the sake of the movie.

 

[Eleanor]

It happens,

Trying to be clear: what "it" are you referring to? My original post was not at all clear. Do you mean: Some people come back from tours of duty and end up fine? or Full blown PTSD just resolves on its own sometimes?

I meant the latter.

 

[anthony]

My interpretation, which sounds fairly accurate, was that you were talking about Chris Kyles return home, displaying PTSD, going to a shrink once, and then sorting himself out without further intervention. If that was accurate, being your latter... then it does happen. People do come home with PTSD and sort themselves out pretty quickly. It happens quite a lot actually, with veterans.

It is a known time-frame of returning veterans home that many simply call decompression. It usually starts in location, sending those returning home to a pre-redeployment area where they can stand-down from duties and such, relax, have a little alcohol, kick back and begin relaxing from the strictness of being "always on" when in base or on patrols or such. Soldiers then get home and symptoms typically appear. Many drown themselves with more alcohol to try and suppress it... and it works for most. Within a month or two home, symptoms subside and they return to normal, all without even seeing a shrink once.

I myself, along with fellow soldiers, went through this many times from the first deployment. It actually grew in length and severity each time, and by the sixth, it took a good six months to get myself together, to only fall apart a later time.

By definition, if I and many of my soldiers seen a shrink in the following weeks on redeployment we would have all met criteria for PTSD... yet given a bit more time and we recovered with zero intervention ourselves... other than some drinking, talking between ourselves about things and staying active and getting our minds back on the job again.

So yes... people do return from deployment with full blown PTSD symptoms and recover with zero, or little, intervention; point them in the right direction for self-motivation and off they go.