Human Connection Freaks Me Out

[Chava]

But there are times where I've actually wondered if it would be worth it to become an alcoholic.

f*ck no. I woke up in ER more times than I can count on two hands. But I hear what you're saying about belonging among broken people. We just need more support groups. Any others that might fit for you? Sometimes churches have special groups, like blanket "recovery" groups for people struggling to recover from anything. Not sure if it's like that where you're at.

And I don't trust women to be strong enough to handle anything especially difficult.

Maybe you just have to find the right person, which could also help change this idea? I don't trust men. Or women. But mostly men. My dad was very weak. But then other men stuff. But I also don't trust women (or humans, for that matter). My issue is really doing therapy with...anyone. I like my therapist and I'd say she's strong. I do feel good about her understanding early trauma stuff. So don't rule that out. It's nice that your therapist was open about complex trauma not really being his thing. But good if he can help you and you feel comfortable with the therapy.

Yes, check out the book. Sometimes it feels a little less lonely just to know I'm not the only person in the world suffering the way I do.

I did check out your intro. You said you "likely" have Aspergers. Was that diagnosed or just suspected? You have clear trauma history and were born into violence to a mentally ill mother. There is a lot of overlap between some of the Aspergers symptoms and developmental trauma. Bessel Van Der Kolk also writes about complex and developmental trauma (so another good book suggestion would be "The Body Keeps the Score"). I'm not saying you don't have Aspergers...I'd have no idea. But I know I relate to the fringes of it and have some of those quirks, but do not have any form of autism. I've worked with gifted children and some that were diagnosed Aspergers really struck me as traumatized, but I was in no position to even comment on it. I just did my best to help them in my role. But, even not being autism spectrum, it helps me a bit to sometimes think of myself as something like it...that I have some quirks that are very deep and it's not all bad. I actually use a lot of it to my benefit and enjoyment of life (I'm hyper-sensitive to sound and I'm a musician).

When I stop comparing to others, I feel better. I don't feel hugely lonely because my will to even connect is often overridden by my nerdy hermit pursuits....that could also look sort of Aspergers, but it's all an adaptation. I felt safest when lost in a project, not able to get into any trouble, not noticed. I also had very weak attachments to my family which were their doing, not mine (and likely due to early medical disasters and separation). But I ended up detached nonetheless. I've felt connected at times before and know I have some deep, normal capacity to feel connected to others...I just have extremely weak muscles for accessing it.

 

[DogwoodTree]

We just need more support groups. Any others that might fit for you? Sometimes churches have special groups, like blanket "recovery" groups for people struggling to recover from anything.

I've looked for stuff like that around here. I guess I just live in too rural an area. There's a larger city about a half hour from me, but haven't found anything there yet, either. Honestly, I'm not even sure I would do well in a group. I tend to mirror people, and when I'm around multiple people at once, I can't focus on one person enough to stay grounded. Working on that. My T suggested joining a therapy group at some point, but I can't afford to do both a group and work with him at the same time.

You said you "likely" have Aspergers. Was that diagnosed or just suspected? You have clear trauma history and were born into violence to a mentally ill mother. There is a lot of overlap between some of the Aspergers symptoms and developmental trauma.

Self-dx'd. I know online tests aren't the most accurate, but I'm pouring my resources into therapy and don't want Aspergers on my medical record anyway. It's actually pretty difficult to get a dx as an adult. But my scores are clearly in the AS (Aspergers Syndrome) range, and so many of the characteristics describe me. At any rate, it gives me insights into how better to help myself, even if at some point they discover a definitive genetic marker for AS that maybe I don't have...treating it as AS is providing insight and structure to learning about myself. I'm not using it as an excuse...not broadcasting that information to the world in a place where I'm personally identifiable (like FB)...just using it as a cognitive structure to understand myself better.

that I have some quirks that are very deep and it's not all bad. I actually use a lot of it to my benefit and enjoyment of life (I'm hyper-sensitive to sound and I'm a musician).

Absolutely agree--there are plenty of advantages to these "quirks." For example, my personality type (INTP) tends to focus on big-picture thinking. But AS emphasizes details. So the combination of the two...I find I can actually "zoom" in and out on a mental picture or structure or system and examine it to whatever level of detail I want. This is really helpful in my work, where I can zoom out and see the very big picture, gradually work my way in, check minute details with great accuracy, and slowly zoom back out to see how it all flows together.

And yes, musical ability is a nice plus...one of the very few areas where I can stir up inner emotions more often than not. What do you play?

When I stop comparing to others, I feel better. I don't feel hugely lonely because my will to even connect is often overridden by my nerdy hermit pursuits....that could also look sort of Aspergers, but it's all an adaptation. I felt safest when lost in a project, not able to get into any trouble, not noticed. I also had very weak attachments to my family which were their doing, not mine (and likely due to early medical disasters and separation). But I ended up detached nonetheless. I've felt connected at times before and know I have some deep, normal capacity to feel connected to others...I just have extremely weak muscles for accessing it.

I have considered that perhaps it's a combination of my personality type (INTP), trauma history, and rxn to that trauma that makes it look like AS. But there are still some things that aren't adequately covered by that explanation. For one thing, AS-like traits are prevalent on my dad's side. Now that I know what to look for, I think it's very likely that he and all of his siblings had/have some version of autism. I also see traits showing up in some of the next generation...a couple of my kids and my sister's kids, where there is no significant trauma to explain the characteristics.

Also, looking back on my childhood...I had sensory issues early on that weren't related to trauma experiences at that point, and social connections have always been a problem for me even when I was tiny. The way I use algorithms and masks to produce a workable social appearance...the way I have such a warped understanding of what is acceptable socially and slow to catch on to trends (if at all)...the way I look much younger than my age...I also have synesthesia, which is more prevalent among autistics, as well as extremely visual thinking...the way I've never, ever felt connected to people...

I hang around an aspie board and an INTP personality type board as well as now adding this PTSD board, so I've observed all these types of people. It really does take the intersection of all three groups to get a somewhat accurate explanation of why I am the way I am.

Do you happen to know your MBTI type? Some introvert types tend to be more introverted than others...more naturally suited to a hermit-like lifestyle. This is a really good test if you've never done one...keys2cognition (I don't have enough posts yet to include a link).

 

[Chava]

I tend to mirror people, and when I'm around multiple people at once, I can't focus on one person enough to stay grounded.

Mirroring is really good. It's normal human interaction. I tend to mirror quite poorly, which I suspect makes it harder for me and others to know we are actually connecting. My therapist have done a sort of mirroring game a couple times which feels helpful when I feel disconnected.

Are you overly aware of your mirroring maybe or do you think you do too much of it, like you lose yourself and become too much the other person? Self-other distortion is common in early trauma stuff. Mirroring on its own is a really good social trait, and one we should all learn really early in life. But I relate to the challenges of having multiple people to focus on. Maybe a structured group, whether a support group, book study, or some other interest group, like a fine arts or nature conservancy committee (or something like this)...where there is more often the structure of a shared goal and one person talking at a time. ??? I do very poorly in a group where there are a few conversations going on around me. It helps to station myself right next to the person I feel like I can most easily talk to. And then if we end up in a three-person conversation with another neighbor at the table, it is much easier. Knowing these things about ourselves is pretty helpful. I don't like large groups but I have found little ways to work around it and make it less overwhelming.

Visual thinking is actually a little challenging among autistics, isn't it? (the whole bit of being able to imagine or put a picture in your mind). I still read a lot of your stuff as development trauma. The inability to connect is a major feature of developmental trauma. But the overlap can be so much that if an autistic perspective helps you understand yourself, it's probably not far off base. I'm also an INTP/INFP (can switch modes, probably a true INFP but thinking just feels safer....and I'm just quite nerdy, so even when more "feeling" I'm researching more emotional topics like spirituality stuff). INTPs are hard to find and they do have a harder time relating. If you can find other thinkers and ideas people, you might feel more at home around them. I feel like I can sniff an INTP out of a crowd. I love them. The "P" part is very strong for me.

So I think you'd like the Laurence Heller stuff to add to your growing understanding of yourself. I'm also reading "Neurofeedback in the Treatment of Developmental Trauma" (Sebern Fisher). Neurofeedback isn't even an option for me, but what I'm doing with my therapist and a bit of sound/vibrational healing is close on a more fuzzy level...having a regulated "other" to help me with connection to self and other, and also self-regulation. My therapist is in the body psychotherapy group, which allows her tools to work with earlier trauma and attachment (using Somatic Experiencing, but also her background in Dance/Movement therapy and family therapy). Anyway, the first couple chapters in the neurofeedback book also describe what happens to the traumatized developing brain.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Are you overly aware of your mirroring maybe or do you think you do too much of it, like you lose yourself and become too much the other person? Self-other distortion is common in early trauma stuff.

Yeah, I don't think I do it in a very healthy, functional way. I lose myself. Best description I've come up with...seems like I create a mask to match what I perceive to be the expectations of the other person for me. Being aware of it now, I've been able to reduce the masking somewhat (can't completely eliminate it because people get offended or deeply confused by what they think I'm communicating, even though that's not at all what I'm actually communicating). But I don't seem to be in touch with anything more authentic to replace it with except this very non-functional, aspie-looking person that I don't even know (but feels more real than any mask I've created). I can still access the masks for certain situations, and there are times when that's appropriate (like for work). But there's no genuine connection for me in that kind of conversation. I have to pack myself away in a deep hole somewhere. The search term that brought me to this site...delayed emotional processing. It's like my emotions simply aren't present in a conversation. I don't emotionally process the interaction until later, and then there's no longer the opportunity for connection in that experience.

And I'm not exactly in "early trauma"...I started studying psychology even before I left the abusive home...I knew months before I left that what he was doing was abuse...I got my BS in psych...I spent all 4 years in undergrad going to therapy...and the nearly 20 years since then studying on my own and going to conferences and seeking help from a variety of sources...it's just that nothing has worked. I think, to be fair though, that I had a very distorted view of what recovery should look like. It's too much detail to get into here on this thread, but it's true that it's only been in the past year or so that I really started to understand about the recovery *process* as opposed to expecting a "sudden healing" or whatever.

Visual thinking is actually a little challenging among autistics, isn't it?

Actually, a lot of autistics think extremely visually. Temple Grandin is a very well-known autistic speaker and author, and she wrote a book called Thinking in Pictures. I read that she even proposed that visual thinking is actually a defining characteristic for autism, though I'm not sure research would bear that out.

I've talked with some people about how they think to compare to the way I think. It seems there are verbal thinkers and visual thinkers, and many who use both (roughly a third in each group). But even people who think visually might only think in snapshots that are directly tied to concrete reality. I can and do think verbally (although it's still visual because I "see" the written words of my thoughts scrolling past my vision), but underneath that and surrounding it are visual thoughts which aren't necessarily tied to words or concrete reality at all. I can visualize all kinds of abstract patterns and energies that have nothing to do with what my eyes see, or I can alter the picture that my eyes feed into my brain...like visualizing a rearrangement of furniture or imagining that a chair is purple instead of brown, and then stretching it taller and then making it float around the room and sit upside down on the ceiling, and even what the room would then look like from that perspective. I can see those pictures in my head. I know the difference between the reality my eyes see and the imagined pictures in my head, but I've found that very few people can mentally manipulate images like that, and especially in a way that looks like an animated video instead of just snapshots along the way. For me, it's manipulate-able video that can look as bizarre as I want it to.

If you can find other thinkers and ideas people, you might feel more at home around them.

I do feel more "comfortable" with idea people and thinking people. My T is an ENFP, so his highest function is extroverted intuition, which is a very strong function for me, too (my top 4 are actually Ti - Ne - Ni - Fi). But I still don't feel "connected" with these people. I don't feel relaxed. I don't feel...I don't know, I can't quite put the right words to it, which is why this thread was so insightful for me. It's like being a snail and trying to explain to a fish what it feels like to live on land. The fish doesn't have a concept of being limited to the ground, but the snail just...knows...it doesn't have the same freedom of movement as the fish. It can't describe what's missing because it never had it...but it knows the fish has a completely different experience of reality simply by watching the fish...but the fish keeps thinking, why don't you just get up and swim already??

I watch a person who is upset being comforted by someone else...encouraging words, a touch on the shoulder, sharing tears, maybe a hug. I understand and see that the upset person is receiving something in the transaction that is helpful to that person. But for me, these things are intrusive rather than helpful. It's data overload...it's the requirement to interact in a way that does not feel natural to me. And so there's no connection in it for me. That doesn't mean that I don't want connection, because I do...but the ways in which other people are able to connect simply don't work for me. And so far I haven't found anything that does work. So inside...I'm interminably alone.

The "P" part is very strong for me.

P/J is really hard for me to distinguish. What is it that stands out to you?

 

[Chava]

I lose myself. Best description I've come up with...seems like I create a mask to match what I perceive to be the expectations of the other person for me

I know I used to feel very much like a chameleon at times...like I just became whatever was around me. I'm sure it relates to having to become whatever my caregiver needed me to be...I became more her than me. This is also a common developmental trauma thing. For some reason that's not such an issue for me anymore, but maybe because I'm just so avoidant. It's like I know there is an authentic self but I'm too afraid to bring her out in public. I don't know what to do sometimes.

It can't describe what's missing because it never had it

Yes, hard to explain this stuff. I assume you're trying to explain not having the human attachment/connection part. Have you thought of a deeper evaluation to rule in/out Autism spectrum? I don't honestly know what the difference would be if the connections problems are really trauma or attachment based, or Autistic...I mean, I don't know what the outlook would be. I think with either there has to be some sort of acceptance and adaptation. But there might be therapeutic hope for the developmental trauma or attachment kind of connection issues.

It's data overload...it's the requirement to interact in a way that does not feel natural to me. And so there's no connection in it for me. That doesn't mean that I don't want connection, because I do...but the ways in which other people are able to connect simply don't work for me. And so far I haven't found anything that does work. So inside...I'm interminably alone.

I relate to this too. I feel like I'm extremely sensitive to what others are feeling though...like I know someone is withdrawing from a conversation or on the verge of being overwhelmed...I see it before others but often don't really know what to do. I have strong empathy, but since I don't know how to respond to my own strong emotions I don't know how to respond to them in others'. It can feel overwhelming. But I allow myself to be the calmer presence and offer a hug. I don't know what to say, but people usually appreciate that I can just feel sort of where they are at...that I see them and understand, even if I don't know what to do. To a weak observer I might seem a little aspergersy, but really I just didn't grow up in an emotionally response environment at all...about as responsive as being raised by robots.

 

[DogwoodTree]

It's like I know there is an authentic self but I'm too afraid to bring her out in public. I don't know what to do sometimes.

Very well said, agreed. I know there's something better inside...I just don't know this person well enough to bring it out. I can't make the connection between the inner world and the outer world, even though I've tried sooo many times.

like I know someone is withdrawing from a conversation or on the verge of being overwhelmed...I see it before others but often don't really know what to do. I have strong empathy, but since I don't know how to respond to my own strong emotions I don't know how to respond to them in others'. It can feel overwhelming. But I allow myself to be the calmer presence and offer a hug.

Have you heard of the Intense World Theory of autism? The proposal is that autistics actually pick up on MORE than other people, but it's so overwhelming that withdrawal from all that input is the only way to handle it. This resonates deeply with me.

So yes, I feel like I pick up on way more than what people actually intend to communicate. It's like there's are all of these subconscious layers of communication that I'm reading, but they don't even seem to be aware that they're communicating them. Problem is, I don't know which layers they're communicating intentionally and which layers are hidden from them. So I might respond to one layer that they don't even realize is going on.

I don't usually respond with hugs, though, or rarely any other comforting response. I try to imagine what I would want in their place (give me space), and it rarely hits the mark for them. Or I try to follow my algorithms for interaction, based on what I've learned from previous, similar encounters, but that feels fake and many times isn't the right response either. Or it's someone where it feels to me like a codependent, enmeshed kind of thing (I'm hurting, please love me enough to fix my problem), and I recoil from that, even though they often aren't aware that's the vibe I'm picking up from them. Or I just feel completely inadequate to the task and find ways to avoid those situations to begin with.

Interactions with people...it's all very cognitive for me. Mostly just algorithms...not very personal, really. I have no clue how much of this is autism and how much is, like you say, developmental/attachment trauma. I imagine they fed into each other, and neither might have been as severe without the other, perhaps. If, for instance, the touch issues are more about autistic sensory issues, there might not be any solution to that. If it's conditioning from trauma, maybe I can overcome it, but even then it's a long road because I've never been comfortable with touch. But I can't stop trying either way. Some adaption, yes, but how to live alone inside forever? I'm not sure how to cope with that possibility.

 

[Chava]

Have you heard of the Intense World Theory of autism? The proposal is that autistics actually pick up on MORE than other people, but it's so overwhelming that withdrawal from all that input is the only way to handle it. This resonates deeply with me.

No. That's interesting, but I'm not autistic, so I don't really run by this. The fact that there is deep confusion over how autism spectrum relates to emotions makes me wonder how super fuzzy the line is between autism and other developmental issues.

So yes, I feel like I pick up on way more than what people actually intend to communicate.

I feel like I get exactly what they are communicating. I just don't know how to respond. Nobody responded to me. I can "feel" with them but I can't respond well. I've gotten better but it's probably always going to be awkward.

Mostly just algorithms...not very personal, really. I have no clue how much of this is autism and how much is, like you say, developmental/attachment trauma. I imagine they fed into each other, and neither might have been as severe without the other, perhaps. If, for instance, the touch issues are more about autistic sensory issues

My own learning challenges = I don't know what an algorithm is. I always felt like I was hit in the head with a brick in math classes. :facepalm:

Sensory integration issues are common in developmental trauma as well. I think it's fair to say that both developmental trauma and autism relate to very early brain development, so there can be a lot of overlap (many of these brain structures are all we have before age 1-2...left hemisphere is not really online until about age 2...we are primarily in connection/attachment, right brain and sensory mode). If you do have both, they would certainly feed off or into each other or blur together.

 

[DogwoodTree]

My own learning challenges = I don't know what an algorithm is.

algorithm=a set of step-by-step rules

Most people learn math by algorithms...like, you know the steps for how to perform long division, but you probably don't really get the underlying concept of how and why it works and ways you could change it or take shortcuts (that would be conceptual learning, which I can do with math).

Social interactions...most people do that intuitively. But I have a slew of step-by-steps to follow. Choose the right one for the situation, and follow it as best I can (if I feel like it).

I just don't know how to respond. Nobody responded to me. I can "feel" with them but I can't respond well.

Yeah, me too.

Let's see if I have enough posts yet to post a video link: [nope...okay...search YouTube for "emotional sponge vs. empathy" and watch Carolyn Zaikowski's video]

This video talks about the difference between emotional sponging and empathy. She tells about how to be there for someone else without being dragged into their feelings...knowing where the difference is between yourself and the other person. And I get that somewhat from the supporter's point of view. But I don't have a clue how to receive support in a healthy way.

My family wasn't allowed to keep secrets from each other (so I got really good at keeping them), and that means that when someone had a problem, everybody dug deep into that person's "stuff" to figure out what was wrong with them and blame them for their problem. There was no "space" to be less than perfect. So I kept my problems to myself as much as possible and appeared as perfect as I could. And I never learned how to receive support in a healthy way, how to be vulnerable like that to someone else.

 

[Berserker14]

I can completely relate.. all through my school "career" I had to make sure people stayed away from me so they wouldn't find out what was happening to me at home, so I sometimes had acquaintances but never friends. I had a "high school sweetheart" that I had two kids with and we were together eight years and he never knew anything about me except that I liked everything he liked. That ended in divorce and I just kinda roamed like a gypsy, never having friends just making crappy decisions (like one night stands that eventually led to having a third kid). Still never having friends I found myself lost in internet land and I feel much more comfortable talking to people online. I have been married for almost two years to a man I met online. I have several people who I interact with online who consider me a friend even though we've corresponded for 4-5 years without talking on the phone or meeting in person. I used to think there was something wrong with me for not craving human interaction, the older I get the less I care about society pushing the idea that everyone should have like a hundred friends. I haven't even interacted with blood relatives in over five years. My husband and the two kids that live with me don't seem to mind that I am quiet and mostly introverted. In fact my oldest son is very introverted while my youngest son is the extreme opposite. He loves socializing and interacting with people. So I don't think my being an introvert harms anyone. I'm capable of forcing myself out of my shell for my kids and husband sake (I don't like it but I know it won't last forever so I get through it) I think it's quite ok for some people to just be happy with their own company.

 

[Chava]

algorithm=a set of step-by-step rules

Got it. I have rules regarding nothing. I can't even make use of them in teaching (boundaries, okay, but I'm far off track in being able to make any good use of rules and formulas).

She tells about how to be there for someone else without being dragged into their feelings...knowing where the difference is between yourself and the other person.

I get this. I think this is roughly where I dissociated around my mom. I was always modulating myself to her moods but I couldn't handle her rage. I just disappeared on the inside and became an empty shell. On the outside I was still because that worked best. I internalized some of that rage and it spilled out in self harm later. But basically it was one of her moods I could not sponge. Wait, I totally sponged it. :O_o::notworthy:

And I never learned how to receive support in a healthy way, how to be vulnerable like that to someone else.

Yes, these are all learned things (which gives me a little hope for learning, even a bit, later in life). Your algorithms sound a little ASD but, whether that or not, certainly you have to adapt in a social world where nobody taught you healthy interaction early on. I've had empathy and am actually really in tune to others...likely because I had to read my mom's moods so carefully. So the problem is having a "self" that interacts with others...and also the give and take. I can sense other people's pain or happiness, but I just don't want to get involved. I warm up to people at a slower speed than normal so many relationships fizzle or don't go anywhere. But I've had some good friendships where it feels like we're on the same wavelength or my speed is okay...like they are curious enough or see through my bubble a bit. Last good friend like this moved across the country for a good job. I didn't feel abandoned because he had worked hard for this kind of career move. I'm just alone again for however many years it takes to find that kind of connection again.

I used to think there was something wrong with me for not craving human interaction, the older I get the less I care about society pushing the idea that everyone should have like a hundred friends

Me too. Part of me feels terrified to recognize how deep my patterns are...but i'm simultaneously just caring less. I do very little comparing. But I don't want to be quite so isolated...figuring out what to accept about myself and how to work around that a little. I do see being an introvert (which I definitely am) as being different than not being able to connect with others though. I just think my introversion makes my connection problems much more tolerable. I know how to be alone.

 

[Berserker14]

Ironically, as much as I don't like human interaction and I prefer my own company to that of others..... my job requires me to interact with a very large diverse number of people on a daily basis (I work for a large retail company). Having shoulder surgery and having to be out of work for an estimated six weeks really doesn't bother me a bit. I dread going back actually.