What Is Your Value?

[seedling]

He retorts that these things are human basics

They should be but they sure aren't borne out by behavior! It's incredibly valuable to the every human being on earth that you care about others and want to make the world a better place.

I think that you working to heal your PTSD is of great value. The more of us that do this work, the better off we all are. I'm starting to see that I've learned so much, because of wanting to heal, that many others have never had to consider having to deal with or recognize about themselves.

I think that even the most value-less seeming person has a value in their own journey in this life. It's their path for their own reasons. I don't want to judge that.

I haven't shared any of that with him.

An "aha" moment for me, I have a "friend" just like this! I am starting to have so much distance from her, it feels great. I have no compulsion to share my life with her now and I don't think she would get it. It's like she was feeding off me anyway. yuck.

 

[Eternum]

I think its quite cynical to have the attitude that there are people on this planet who are completely value-less.

First of all, I wanted to say thanks for posting in my introduction thread. I didn't intend to happen across one of your posts, but I did. :p

As to the part I quoted, I think that sums it up nicely. I would go even further and say that he demonstrated an unhealthy mental process. :poop: Not on the surface. Some people can only comprehend things in concrete terms, and that's ok. Where I see the problems are:

1. He felt entitled to question another person's value. This is both an intrusion on your boundaries, and logically impossible. No one has access to all the details. Even when we try to estimate our own value, we're working with memories that fade even in our best states. I don't think perfect judgment can ever occur on this Earth.
2. When you were willing to stand up for your value, he started poking holes in it with opinions, not facts. Cynical ones at that.
3. Those opinions unveiled a view that someone must meet some sort of physical or financial criteria to be considered valuable. He was practically telling you that love isn't valuable. By using his "logic," then infants and children have no value either.
4. His entire foundation of argument was based on the idea of permanence: that you can't change, that your life can't change, that you will always be whatever he thought he was seeing.

If it were me in your shoes, I would've told him that he should really get some professional help for that.

I come from a similar place as you and even this guy you talked to. There was a long time where I ruminated suicide because I was a "waste of resources." Like you, I had a supportive family that has the attitude that everyone is here for a reason. My dad has stated many times in one form or another that there are so many people born on this earth because we're not supposed to be alone, we all want to contribute in the world.

Which means, he'll remind me, that there are people that need to be contributed to. Every human being needs help in their lives at some point, some longer than others. That's his attitude and slowly it became mine. He's even reminded me that no matter what state I'm in, there's a way I can help someone else, and I have slowly built experiences on that too. Everything we go through builds compassion and empathy for others.

That is the value of who you are and what you are going through, a lesson this guy clearly needs to learn.

That was a good thing for you, though. I have heard, witnessed, and experienced that when people are genuinely making a major life improvement, it immediately begins to filter out the people who won't support it. It's like a backhanded compliment. Keep it up. :tup:

 

[RussH]

I guess for me it depends on what you mean as value?
I break value down into two categories: intrinsic value, and occupational value; what you do for employment and do for others.
I have value as a worker, because I contribute to my workplace in a positive, manner. I also tend to help others, so in this area I have "value."
However in terms of intrinsic value; be of value just because I am human or I am me, then I have no sense of value at all.
I struggle greatly with feelings of insignificance, and when asked, I cannot honestly tell you that I feel any sense of self-value.
I wish I did.

 

[rainy_daze]

My posts no longer receive replies outside of one person who is kind to me

I didn't want to take that thread ^ off topic again Kis, but this thread is evidence to the contrary. You do receive replies here, and this thread is more than one person who is being kind. I'm concerned you're not feeling supported on the forums, and I hope this changes for you. A :hug: from afar if you want it. I've appreciated your honesty in posts, even if I don't always agree. Variety is the spice of life, or whatever it is people say.

I think every single human life has value. Sometimes, even just getting a smile from a stranger walking by me, means I won't jump from a tall building that day [note: suicidal ideation]. It means I will think I'm connected to the world, rather than I'm worthless and invisible.

I would be pretty miffed if someone started questioning my value and worth.

 

[Eleanor]

However in terms of intrinsic value; be of value just because I am human or I am me, then I have no sense of value at all.

I am thinking hard about this. On the one hand, I am not quite sure what "intrinsic value" on this view would be. COULD be. I am thinking hard about what I mean by Value (for professional reasons.) I hope to have something sensible to say soon...

I don't need someone who questions my worth and tells me I'm worthless.

Well, obviously not. Since it is apparently NOT a genuine question. Instead it is a set up for an insult.

I think it is worthwhile to be clear on our own value to ourselves...

 

[RussH]

I am not quite sure what "intrinsic value

Intrinsic value is a value given to something, or someone not based on merit, but simply because it is perceived as valuable. A diamond has intrinsic value, gold has intrinsic value. It is valuable because it is valuable.

The original poster talked about feeling valueless for years, and that is how I feel. I do not have a sense of personal value. I do not feel I have a sense of personal value, and I think that stems from my past trauma. I think my perception was if I had any personal value, then they would not have treated me the way they did.

I had responded to the post to let the writer of the post know they are not alone is feeling that they are without value.

 

[Eleanor]

Thank you for the clarification @RussH. I think I am confused because it seems to me that "Value" is something we DO. So to say that something has value is to say that someone values it. "Intrinsic" value seems kind of like a conceptual mistake - about diamonds or gold. If people didn't particularly value them they'd be just another shiny rock and metal. So, the words don't (for me, and I'm weird. I know that.) really capture the thing about people being "valuable."

Here is what Kant said about that. Well, the idea anyhow. You know the story about the goose that laid the golden eggs? And the farmer got greedy and wanted "the rest" of the eggs all at once and split open the goose? (didn't find the eggs of course.) Here is the thing: which was more valuable, the goose or the eggs? We are the goose. (Or geese, as the case may be.) We are the sorts of creatures that create value, so whatever is more beyond value... that is us. I like this idea, a lot. Calling it "intrinsic value" is kind of confusing for me tho. (Maybe it is not for anyone else. Probably not.)

We learn about ourselves and how to regard and treat ourselves from the people we are around as children. And if they tell us the wrong things, (about anything, really) we believe them until we rack up enough experiences to see that they cannot possibly be right about those things. NO, your face will not just stay like that. NO, if you swim less than an hour after eating you will not get cramps and die. NO, I do not deserve to be beaten/ignored ... You are wrong and I am the kind of person others can love and respect, and I can love and respect myself. So I can value myself. And it works more or less like valuing other people, and the more I value myself the more/better I can value others. It is a positive feedback loop. So this is, as I understand it, why it would be pretty easy to lack a sense of one's own value... if one hadn't been accustomed to valuing oneself. It is a bootstrap operation, only the kind that works. I get a sense of my own value by... valuing myself.

Does any of that make sense?

 

[rainy_daze]

@Eleanor that is interesting. Value to me is about self worth. It has taken a long time to not think that my value/worth as a person should be based on how other people treat or have treated me. What you said about children being told messages from a young age makes a lot of sense to me.

When I am at my lowest point, this is when the smile from a stranger makes a difference to me, because who is to say that person was not having an awful day too, and felt noticed, alive and appreciated, just from a simple exchange.

Relying on that as the only way to measure what my value is would be wrong, however, because then I may become dependent on these kind of things to think I have a sense of value. I'm worth liking myself, even if others don't like me.

I think my perception was if I had any personal value, then they would not have treated me the way they did.

That is sad Russ. I hope you can challenge that thinking.

You do not just have to help others, which is one reason you said you have value. You can use that skill to help you find your own sense of value. I hope this makes sense :banghead:.

 

[Eleanor]

When I was a kid I loved all of Madeline L'Engle's book. I think it was in A Wind in the Door - one of the big take home's was this: "Love is not something you feel, love is something you do." It struck me then, and stuck with me. Of course we can feel love of various sorts as well.. but at the end of the day for me, love is something we do.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

If love is something you *do* then I only have two people on this planet who love me, my mom and my dad.

Others claim to be my "friend" for selfish reasons, co-dependency, the desire to control, wanting whatever it is that they want with no care or concern for the other person, and so on.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND!

I don't use people for what I can get out of them. I don't use them for my own selfish means.

I don't understand what is so wrong with me that says "f*ck me over, please"

 

[Neverthesame]

That bloke was being, well, (trying to think of the right word best I can come up with is) scuzzy. Who the hell does that?

Gah, I would have been very tempted to throw a drink in his face. I have had similar questions levelled at me by strangers, but it was really obvious that they were part of some religious group doing what they do. Not very offensive to me, a simple "no thank you, not interested" off we go our separate ways.

How is being a kind caring person not a valuable character trait? And who the bloody hell is he to decide what is? The sort of person who needs to take a long walk off a short pier, that's who.

I am going to be honest with you here, and I do hope that you don't take this as a criticism, because it isn't.

From what I have read from you on this forum, you strike me as a genuinely caring person, who has no desire to mince words, or sugar coat things to spare someone's feelings. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with that. In fact, that way of reaching people can be very helpful. Sometimes a good verbal smack in the face can get through to people, when the same thing being said ever so gently, simply flies over their head. Though less often appreciated, it not a bad thing to be sure.

I totally agree with you, that guy is just unpleasant. If I were you, I wouldn't want talk to him again either.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

From what I have read from you on this forum, you strike me as a genuinely caring person, who has no desire to mince words, or sugar coat things to spare someone's feelings. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with that. In fact, that way of reaching people can be very helpful. Sometimes a good verbal smack in the face can get through to people, when the same thing being said ever so gently, simply flies over their head. Though less often appreciated, it not a bad thing to be sure.

Thank you.

I don't understand why people say that I come across as being genuinely caring? I mean I don't think that's the front I put forward.