A codependent thread, anyone?

[PreciousChild]

There was a codependent thread maybe a couple of years ago. I wanted to see if anyone was interested in posting about issues relating to this. A little background: I was married to a gambling addict, and divorced like 14 years ago. I only learned about and embraced the label of codependency about a couple of years ago. I'm re-reading Melody Beattie's Codependent No More because I've been overly focused on my bf's problems with his ex. They have a kid together, and they both do joint things together and sometimes fight. I've been a little too focused on identifying their "flaws" and wanting to rush into "rescue" and "fix" them. I believe his ex has ptsd too, but she is completely unwilling to accept any personal responsibility. And I think my bf feels guilty, so he indulges her. But guess what? It's none of my damned business, so I'm trying to focus instead on myself.

I've also been re-reading Body Keeps the Score. I'm starting to make connections between my fixation on other people's problems and my ptsd. van der Kolk talks about how the worst kind of attachment a child might have with a parent is the disorganized kind. In that kind of attachment, the child just is completely blighted because the parent is so chaotic that the child doesn't know whether to run to the parent for comfort (which she is innately driven to do) or turn away (which she can't do because the parent might harm them). So the child just sits there and angrily focuses on the parent instead of doing the millions of things a kid should rather do like play, be little egoists, laugh, draw, whatever. He thinks that the primary issue is feeling safe. I did not feel safe with either of my parents, nor any other grown up and it is a very sad existence to walk through the world without that fundamental sense of feeling you're not going to be harmed that day.

I think I focus on other people because it was my strategy to exert some small amount of control. As a child though, I had no control. Now I do, and I think I'm tempted to control events that are outside my purview. Secondly, I think I direct my split off anger to certain people, like my bf's ex. When I was a kid, I must have developed a huge amount of anger towards my parents who gave me so little of what I needed. I can only imagine being a child desperate for love, attention, recognition. How do I make them give me that? I can't. There is nothing I could have done. But to express that anger would have been impossible because I needed them for survival. As van der Kolk points out, even severely abused kids choose to stay with their abusive parents rather than choose to go to a foster home if they can. I think my psyche still attempts to deflect that anger. Something I've embraced is that I've turned that anger inward and have blamed myself for being wrong and unloveable. But I'm starting to also embrace the idea that maybe I also direct that subverted anger out to certain people who become placeholders for my parents.

Any codependents out there who has tried to connect their codependent tendencies with trauma?

 

[PreciousChild]

Another thing I read in van der Kolk that I relate to is his findings that "normal" people who don't have ptsd tend to focus on themselves when at rest. When just sitting without anything to do, the brain regions that are responsible for the sense of self are active. In a ptsd person, when at rest, those regions are not active. So I think a part of what conditions my codependency is the fact that I have developed a pattern not to focus on my own needs. I think it might even rise to the level of a phobia. It would have put me in danger to ask for what I needed from my parents, so I avoided that like the plague. And here I still am stewing about what other people are doing instead of the millions of other things I could be doing to make myself happy and at peace.

 

[Mach123]

I'm not into this particular way of thinking but that's not to say I can't benifit from your insight. I actually go to therapy across the street from Bessels old place the Trauma centre at JRI. I was a client there also for about a year?

But that confusion thing you said about a kid being destroyed by his mother doing that? My wife does that. Her mom did it.

She reminds us all (the kids and I laugh about it) of Bullwinkle because whenever anyone tries to do anything she yells "Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!"

Nothing ever gets done and I always feel I'm to blame why can't I do anything nothing works. She denies everything of course.

But you always feel on thin ice. Nobody ever knows when or how anything is going to happen and nothing ever has to be done on schedule. No routine, no responsibility.

Sometimes all you can do is laugh but it's real. I mean the whole family was unhinged by that. Any attempt to control the chaos is labeled abuse and discarded.

 

[DharmaGirl]

As van der Kolk points out, even severely abused kids choose to stay with their abusive parents rather than choose to go to a foster home if they can.

When I was growing up, I don't think you had a choice. As a 5 year old, I asked my best friend's mom if I could live with them, and they said no, but kindly, as a 10 year old, I told Mother David, mother superior, about my abuse, and she said it didn't happen in nice families. So I guess I could have run away, but how would I have escaped to take care of myself and not be put back with my parents?

 

[Mach123]

Yes! I ran away when I was 14. All the stuff right around then are very confused IDK what actually was going on. But my mom had left my dad for her second husband who was a really violent alcoholic and they would start fighting and the cops would come and I thought the cops were there to rescue me.

But they didn't. I eventually got the courage to run away to my dads house. I never told him why.

 

[Teasel]

Great thread, I'd like to explore this a bit too. Have read Melodie Beattie a couple times though it's been a while now.

I can remember being afraid to state needs and wants for sure. And though I don't feel like I've a great understanding of it yet I know there were attachment problems that cause me a lot of pain now.

Wonsering what specifically anyone has done to work on this? Thanks

 

[grit]

Another thing I read in van der Kolk that I relate to is his findings that "normal" people who don't have ptsd tend to focus on themselves when at rest. When just sitting without anything to do, the brain regions that are responsible for the sense of self are active. In a ptsd person, when at rest, those regions are not active.

Very powerful statement and I will add from my experience (and maybe it was mentioned by Van Der Kolk but not included in your paraphrase) that in PTSD, at rest, you think of "others" rather than you...how you feel, how is your body, any tension, hungry, horny, sad, happy, ambition etc ...whatever else you could think nope! must think of others, she did this to me, he did that tome. I have to do this for him or for her so (not conscious) he loves me or she loves me or guilt or trying to push down hate or rage by overcompensating, i hate my friend sue but I love sue and I should call her - it is crazy making.

All that being said, I will add co-dependency is actually a bad word and sometimes honestly things we label in this culture are just wrong. Everything that gets damaged by trauma has good and bad on spectrum. Nothing in life is all good or all bad...there is grey area.

Co-dependency in a healthy, satisfying, and growth inducing is good. The key is you must be CONSCIOUS OF IT. When co-dependency goes wrong to almost end of spectrum is when let us say, you are self sabotaging to be in the relationship with the person hurting you. It is like the 14yrs you stayed with the gambler, you must have closed off all your senses just to breathe for him and finally and thank goodness, your survival kicked in high gear and you had to leave or die. But unfortunately when there are addictions, or disordered personalities, one can stay in the fire forever.

When I met my husband, I dumped my mother. I was not aware that I was replacing the love for my mother for him until I was out of the fire for few years and realised...I need to heal myself and not use my husband as a crutch! it was such an eye opening that I am so grateful I woke up before it was too late.
Co-dependency is like a child and mother - the first 6 to 7 months. Imagine you "need" a person that much and that deep and you are adult....it is so regressive, it is dangerous. BTW, it is not about intimate relationships either. Mothers and sons, mothers and daughter and fathers and sons (maybe not as much but I guess it does happen) or fathers and daughters is more so or at least visible often (trump and his little daughter). It is a process of human development called symbiotic stage and it does go quite awry in traumatic childhood and it is extremely hard to heal from because it is truly so painful when it happens as a baby but thank goodness again we do not remember it. Do it as an adult in therapy, and you risk of complete meltdown but it is worth it, in my book.

 

[HealingMama]

Thanks for starting this thread. In most professional circles of therapists they frown on the word codependent but I find value in it as a way to describe what happens when you don't get good enough nurturing for your authentic self so you wear a mask, you live for others, you live through others.

I think emotional abuse primed me to certain forms of codependency like catching my partner's moods. And because I can't accept them being in a bad mood I can police it. I can't just focus on myself. If they aren't healthy my world isn't healthy... rather than leaving them to do whatever they want/need to while I do my own thing.

Codependency has kept me in a situation that is unmanageable. I have been trying to just manage me, and only step in when absolutely necessary, but it's not enough. I have been living in chaos and trying to make the best of it when the healthy thing would have been to GTFO a long time ago.

 

[PreciousChild]

Thank you all for your thoughts. I might use the word 'co-dependent', but whatever we call it, I think it kind of consolidates many facets of our experiences being with others in the world. I don't have a lot of time right now, so I'm going to keep this brief, but I wanted to comment in more details on some of the posts here when I do have time. For now, I just wanted to say that my basic understanding of co-dependency is like @HealingMama 's. I had all sorts of negative associations with that term until I actually read about it, and then I fully embraced it. I have no problem with the notion of interdependency and think that there is a lot of support and help others can offer us and vice versa. But co-dendents help until it hurts and/or help to control, etc. More later. Thanks again!

 

[HealingMama]

Too late to add an edit but found this article that I think you might appreciate @PreciousChild Delusions of the Codependent

 

[PreciousChild]

She reminds us all (the kids and I laugh about it) of Bullwinkle because whenever anyone tries to do anything she yells "Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!"

Wow, @Mach123. The household seems so chaotic. Would you want to make any changes for the kids' sake? I am highly motivated when it comes to my kid. I think in part I try to protect him from any kind of abuse like the way I suffered.

When I was growing up, I don't think you had a choice. As a 5 year old, I asked my best friend's mom if I could live with them, and they said no, but kindly, as a 10 year old, I told Mother David, mother superior, about my abuse, and she said it didn't happen in nice families. So I guess I could have run away, but how would I have escaped to take care of myself and not be put back with my parents?

I'm so sorry that happened to you @DharmaGirl. If you were asking at 5 years old to live elsewhere, that's incredible. Right, it's not like anyone is going to give a 5 year old a job or let them rent an apartment. But whereas there are agencies that adults can turn to to report harrassment, abuse, etc. Kids have only their parents. For some of us, it was like being forced to stay in torture camps and some of us got stockholm syndrome.

I thought the cops were there to rescue me.

:( So sorry, Mach123. That must have added to your sense of helplessness and shame that they saw you and left you there as is.

When I met my husband, I dumped my mother. I was not aware that I was replacing the love for my mother for him until I was out of the fire for few years and realised...I need to heal myself and not use my husband as a crutch!

That's good that you came to this recognition. I'm not sure I understood your point about the symbiotic relationship. If you mean that a rupture in the parental/child relationship leaves a very primordial scar, I agree. When I feel the fear of what could happen if I don't help in the right ways, I feel my brain stem pulsating. I feel that whatever is driving my codependency reaches very, very deep into my animal brain.

Again, thanks @HealingMama . The article was really helpful before seeing my bf this weekend. It put things in perspective.

Everything was cool with my bf this weekend, but I have to say that prior to seeing him, I was having a 5 alarm drama of my own making. But I decided to keep that drama to myself. In reality, my bf is handling matters with his ex in a way that demonstrates good judgment and priorities which is very much considerate of me. If I let my neurosis try to control the process, I would be putting a lot of pressure and intensity on him to meet certain criteria that my imagination has decided would be "good enough" for me. But I am so glad that I decided rather to let it go. I gave him total freedom and trust to make the best decisions that he knew how, and he has more than exceeded my expectations about enforcing boundaries with his ex and checking her expectations. He got it. I can just relax and focus on my own shit.

 

[Mach123]

Chaos is right it's how she controls things. It took me forever to figure it out.

As far as the thing with the cops there were so many incedent like that involved in running away from my mom. When she left my dad she told me she was going and asked me if I wanted to go and I said no I'll stay with dad. She denies this. I think my mother sexualized me and although it was when I was very young and I don't remember but I remember things that point to it.

Anyway, she made me go with her, I was 12.

I agree with you about Stockholm syndrome. I find I relive this over and over but it's very hard to see it. I think my therapist sees it?

My kids are grown though 3 are here still, my parents passed away.