Other Actual Or Immediate Threat Of Death Or Injury: How Does It Work?

[joeylittle]

In my example there's never any "immediate threat" of death while the person still has the emotional capacity to fear death.

But, don't you think these things are inextricably tied to each other? Immediate threat of death wouldn't be impactful as trauma if it weren't endowed with the fear of death.

It's an interesting question, and I don't mean to shut down the conversation - something that I have a hard time reconciling is that there were a number of instances in my trauma where I thought I wanted to die, and the thought of death brought relief. But when I came right up against the possibility of death, everything in my body rebelled against it.

Does anyone else have that experience?

 

[Chava]

There would definitely be a fear of serious harm in torture situations, even if methods don't seem to be killing you any time soon. The major extreme issue is probably the captivity. While being tortured, any nervous system would want to fight or flee, but you are not allowed that response...hence set up for PTSD.

Also, where there is gray area around Criterion A, that's where the symptom set matters (forms of avoidance, re-experiencing, etc). People can also have Criterion A trauma and not end up with PTSD, as we know. That's wy Criterion A has to work in connection to the rest of the diagnostic criteria.

The torture bit was a side shoot or side topic, I know, so I'll get out of here. But it probably has to do mostly with being tortured (to whatever extent) and trapped. The threat is constant because you don't really know what will happen, but it reads as pure emergency. That is sheer hell on the human nervous system.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Although the methods are designed to not kill you, and to generally not cause catastrophic injury (so you can live to be tortured some more), the person being tortured doesn't experience them as such. Experientially, they are extreme, the pain is extreme, and it is hard to think anything at all except that you can't make it.

I second this!

 

[Ed Norton]

I wish the Criteria were simply combined with sound clinical judgement...but then every tiny thing would be PTSD and We'd be further marginalized. But the above torture scenarios, if I were the diagnosing clinician, and the symptoms were solid they'd get a PTSD diagnosis despite not death.Besides, you can't know if they will kill you or not, hence more torture, psychologically.

In my case, I was alternately shocked and burned with a taser, asphyxiated till near passing out, tied up and cuffed tight enough to cause damage and had multiple death threats. I was prepared to die but didn't wanna be tortured to death or die a painful death. I think the biggest factor in my acquiring PTSD was accepting death then living tbh.I don't know.But the will to live is strong. I didn't pass out or (possibly) die cuz even though I was in an 'asphixiatory' position with one maybe two big fat pigs pressing me with all their might for, how long I'm not sure, with one being probably 300lbs, was because my pec muscles fought hard so that I can keep breathing. They voiced shock and disappointment that I was still breathing. Despite the obvious advantage, they or he got tired before I gave up trying to take breaths (Scary as f*ck)

Anyway, back on topic, I think PTSD in cases of pure torture should be how the supreme court defined 'Obscene' as in 'We can't define it but we know it when we see it.' Unfortunately that requires a doctor ( a good one, who knows what they are doing and what they are talking about) and not just a f*cking book with a symptom list and time factor.

So, PTSD for people tortured may go undiagnosed whereas some dizzy troll bitch on twitter can get it from getting called names. Oh well, what can you do? The world still spins on it's axis and the rivers still flow into the sea, thank goodness.

 

[Chava]

we know it when we see it.' Unfortunately that requires a doctor ( a good one, who knows what they are doing and what they are talking about) and not just a f*cking book with a symptom list and time factor.

So, PTSD for people tortured may go undiagnosed whereas some dizzy troll bitch on twitter can get it from getting called names.

''

Yes. Some words strung together, as best we can, to create diagnostic criteria and a really savvy and well-trained human doing a thorough intake, not just checking boxes. It's the same with any diagnosis we can't define via simple blood test or X-ray, etc. I personally think the criteria are fine, but perhaps it is still misdiagnosed, like a shitload of other disorders. We're not perfect.

 

[Ed Norton]

Btw: I didn't get diagnosed with PTSD, initially despite basically being a walking DSM (IV) (at the time) example. Therefore, not treated until somewhat recently. In fact had to get to the worst limits of it and have a psychotic break, in order to find my current treatment team and they have been great. Somehow, I stopped flashbacks after the delusions..don't ask me how cuz nobody knows.

Just a little personal 'epilogue' to the story

 

[Ed Norton]

I agree on the Criteria but these doctors!!! :banghead: @Chava

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I struggle with this often, and maybe other people do as well..

For me, I struggle w/ understanding PTSD and how I fit within it really. I know i do cause i experience the symptoms, which was the only way i could accept it, but still struggle with it.

CPTSD confuses the hell out of me as well.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

But when I came right up against the possibility of death, everything in my body rebelled against it.

Does anyone else have that experience?

Yes! More than just in my trauma, many of my failed suicide attempts were due to this.

Like if you attempt to drown yourself you will always come up for air (just as an example).

Humans have a drive, a will to live, no matter how hopeless & desprite one feels.

I have many MANY examples of this in and after my trauma.

 

[Seasounds]

there were a number of instances in my trauma where I thought I wanted to die, and the thought of death brought relief. But when I came right up against the possibility of death, everything in my body rebelled against it.

Ideas:

When a person wants to die, or doesn't feel they will make it, due to being in pain, there are a number of physiological factors that may be giving a person conscious signals that their body's systems are declining (e.g. blood pressure dropping), so death may actually be near.

When coming right up against the threat of death, your body's deep survival mechanisms kicked in.

What do you think?

 

[joeylittle]

But the will to live is strong.

This is so true. And I don't know if it's a conscious will or an automatic physical response. And I don't know why I want to know the answer to that question. And, and, and...

Btw: I didn't get diagnosed with PTSD, initially despite basically being a walking DSM (IV) (at the time) example.

I'm a little different - I didn't develop PTSD. Or, I don't think I did. Sometimes, now, I wonder. But when I did develop PTSD, it was so big and clear (to my doctors, not to me, of course), that I have trouble reconciling the difference between how I lived with what happened for years, and how I can't live with what happened, now.

Some words strung together, as best we can, to create diagnostic criteria and a really savvy and well-trained human doing a thorough intake, not just checking boxes. It's the same with any diagnosis we can't define via simple blood test or X-ray, etc.

If I prayed, I would pray for the blood test, the fMRI, the anything. But yes, in the bigger picture, it's all just an attempt to put something into words.

The torture bit was a side shoot or side topic, I know, so I'll get out of here. But it probably has to do mostly with being tortured (to whatever extent) and trapped. The threat is constant because you don't really know what will happen, but it reads as pure emergency. That is sheer hell on the human nervous system.

I'm glad you came on over - I hadn't really been factoring this bit in, either. It's sort of meta - but yes, knowing that you are literally, physically, not metaphorically but actually not getting out. Personally, I have that belief that what I experienced was not so bad compared to what people who are held for longer periods go through. I know that's not helpful, but it sticks with me because it was a coping device later on. But when you are being held captive, I guess on a certain level it doesn't matter.

Also, time gets weird.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

When coming right up against the threat of death, your body's deep survival mechanisms kicked in.

What do you think?

Thats the same thing I just said.

Every human has a primal instinct to survive.

Driving a call 100 mph towrds a brick wall or on coming traffic & you'll always swerve, drowning, always come up for air.