Another Fight

[ninja]

Regarding the trying to change part, I am trying to change, but I do not really notice what I do wrong.

Okay, this is what drives me bonkers. Who is defining what is "right" behavior and what is "wrong" behavior? It sounds like he is. Do you like the kind of person he is? Do you feel in accord with his moral code? Do you feel like being in accordance with his moral code is feasible at all or healthy even?

You are equals. You are both humans and deserve to be treated with decency and respect.

- I'm thinking of us as equals, which we are not
- I do not speak clearly, but rather, according to his words "pseudo-philosophise and bullshit, which are the same thing"
- I am not trying to change
- I stray away from topic
- I give him orders
- I'm egoistical and think only about myself
- I focus on others and never on myself
- I overanalyze his words
- I do not try to think about my actions
- I do not introspect
- I do not think of what I say
- I analyze his reasons and words although I'm not the psychiatrist in the room and do not have the right to
- I talk to him like he is equal although he is superior
- I'm narcissistic

1. Have you asked him how you can speak more clearly? Does he mean he wants you to speak more directly? There are a fair number of healthy people on the planet who could not answer a direct question with a direct answer because it is just too complex and interwoven with other beliefs, or is in process of being worked out still. This may be a personality clash.
2. What kind of change is he looking for and is he so narrow minded so as to be unable to see change that falls outside of what he envisions
4 and 5. I can see how these might not contradict each other, particularly if he is trying to assert that you can find fault in others but do not spend so much time finding fault in yourself + you use your perception as a reference and spend a good deal of time trying to hone it. I think there are much better ways of expressing this if it is what he was meaning. I do not necessarily think spending time finding faults within ourselves is productive and rather think it can cause further self-absorbedness.

Maybe there is some projection happening, particularly if he is feeling less than adequate in terms of being able to keep up with the analyses. So many of these arguments are ad hominem. I would continue to vet his feedback on you (against the kind of person you want to be) and be sure to be around others who can add some different perspectives also.
Take really good care.

 

[Freedomfighter]

Well, one would want to know the history, cant really judge that, you have seen that T for 4 years, but it sounds aggressive between the doc and the patient and that cant be good.

 

[Deleted member 28403]

Okay, this is what drives me bonkers. Who is defining what is "right" behavior and what is "wrong" behavi...

Well, from what I understood from what he said, he wants me to stop giving feedback?

Like, he compared it to talking to someone who is performing a heart operation on you, and it's sorta really confusing, becazse I found thise two incomparable.

To 2. When I asked him what kind of change, he just sorta burst and said I should introspect (not with the word introspect, but he described the word introspect through what he said) and figure out the change myself.

Basically, when he asked me what I think about the last fight, I said something along the lines of nothing, but a bit later I explained that I can not really form it into words, to which he went with the arguments of me not even trying and so on.

I'm generally lost

 

[erigby]

Well, I've been working with him for 4 years now.

The not trying to change argument and the fights acc...

4 years is a long time to still be having this sort of trying to sort it out conversation.
Perhaps a. its time for a new therapist or b. you are not utilizing the therapeutic relationship to its fullest potential.
My experience is...first comes the trust in the relationship...this is built off of rupture and disappointments and even some abandonment....then comes trust...they aren't going anywhere?... ok let me test the waters.
Second...the superficial stuff...how much does he/she really care about all the shit I've been carrying around for all of my life? Third...maybe I can begin to talk about some of the more difficult stuff and they won't freak out.
Fourth...they didn't freak out...now I have to work on me...oh shit!
Where are you?
The oh shit part is where I generally get frustrated and want to quit.
How much do you trust your T?
If you are afraid of abandonment...you haven't established that part of the relationship yet.
If you are afraid he/she will be freaked out by your story...you haven't established the most important part of the relationship yet.
If you are afraid to look at yourself in the mirror...and you trust your T to be that mirror...you may just be wading into the most healing part of the whole process.
I can't tell you where you are.
Only you know that.
All phases are appropriate and there is no time line to any of them.
Be where you are.
Know it.
And seek to find the one who can take you to the next.

 

[eloc]

My T told me that my personality might interfere with my getting better - because I was a bit in denial about what was happening to me. I ended up having severe bodily reactions to his comment and taking three weeks to work through the body symptoms including a trip to emergency with heart attack symptoms . Pretty much that was the start of things getting better in our work together and my acceptance of my condition. My denial was not me being a teenager because I was about 43 when this happened - I think confronting is sometimes a tool used to make you think about your situation. PTSD behaviours are not conscious/initially controllable and driven by our endicriniology ( HPA dysfunction) and I think a lot of sufferers have post behaviour understanding of what we have done rather than in the moment consciousness. It is our Ts job to help us catch our antisocial/overreactions early and have strategies for distracting ourselves/coming down from them instead of going on like a train wreck. I am at the point where I know when my behaviour is off and sometimes I can stop it but often it is too late and because of that I really just want to avoid lots of interactions. I think though he has confronted you - if you do the work and think he may have something then have that discussion next time - if you need more time just say that and take time to think on it. If in the end you can not see his confrontation as an attempt to get serious reflection then change but take time around the decision, maybe have a break.

 

[Deleted member 28403]

Well, I accepted his rules, so I guess I will see how it goes next session, but honestly, to me they seem like a bunch of "No, you don't talk back to me!" stuff... But I might be a teenager

 

[scout86]

But I might be a teenager

But that's a "Good" thing. :) Teenagers can be fun, interesting, challenging......lot's of good things. But, there are plenty of adults who don't handle being talked back to well. I suppose learning to deal with them is part of being a teenager? Good luck!

 

[ladee]

Sael..my two cents..take what you need and leave the rest.
By you being an intellectual, putting words to emotions is hard for you. You are chronically depressed..again, it's hard to find words to explain how you feel.

When I was counseling teenage guys..I found that when they shared things they were interested in..mostly sports for these guys...I could use sports anolgies to get them to share. And to understand.
For one thing it put a little distance from thier feelings..which once they made the connection on a feelings level they started making progress.
It would be like you trying to get me to understand some complicated, over my head rocket science theory.
I wouldn't have a clue what you wanted from me.
I truly feel you don't know how you feel sometimes. Neither do I sometimes. But others will keep sharing until someone says it in a way I understand.
And if I feel someone is frustrated with me , my brain freezes and I sure as hell can't speak then.
All these words to say..the last thing you or any of us need is to be approached with anger and frustration.
That makes us 'bad and wrong" so for me.
I would be thinking. What's the point in all this.
The problem here is you finding a T smarter than you! An by that..I mean someone who can figure out how to get you from point A to point B without you being so frustrated from anger coming at you.
I know you will correct me if I'm wrong. The difference being. I won't take it personal and try to listen to what you are saying.
Good luck man..I know you are trying....and it is good to see you around again.

 

[Justmehere]

You know what strikes me Saelben? You are super bright. You have insight far beyond most adults. You have tremendous compassion for others. You communicate very well.

And sometimes when a teenager is really good at a handful of adult skills, some mental health professionals expect that the teenage client must therefore be good at all things, and if they are not, well then can be "insighted" or confronted out if a behavior they just clearly for sure know they are doing... when the thing is, you are a human with blind spots and struggles and PTSD, and that's why you are in therapy in the first place, and that isn't always healed by simply being aware or others trying to confront you into awareness.

And the feedback he gave is a load of contridictory messages from a healthcare professional who has forgotten why you are there in the first place, and assumes very wrongly your high level of skills in some areas means that you are simply refusing to be well.

I know for a fact that you are doing the best damn job you can.

Everyone in an argument gets egotistical. That's called normal. It's not a pathological condition.

You do use the defense mechanism of over-intellectualization, and the doc should see this for what it is: a sign of how much pain you are in, how much you have to defend against, not a willful act to waste time.

It might be time to ask this doc to help you find someone to give a second opinion, a fresh take, and/or try some new techniques. If he helps in the search, it may help overcome some of the barriers of the past in finding someone willing to consult on your care.

I'm so sorry he is being quite the jerk. I think that many of his statements about you could be projection on his part.

Most of all, keep up the good work you are doing because I too, have seen great changes in you.

 

[Deleted member 28403]

Sael..my two cents..take what you need and leave the rest.
By you being an intellectual, putting words to...

Yea, you phrased it better than I could.

One problem though is that he is all thats available to me right now. So I need to figure out how to work this out, but then, who is the psychiatrist here?

 

[ladee]

That's true. So maybe coming here more often..letting us know what's going on...and we could help with things like grounding...distraction..those type things. Not the heavy stuff he does.
Have You read Distorted cognition on Social by Me Spock..
Give an example of something you both get upset about.
Give as much detail as you remember. Give us an idea about how the two of you are communicating. Do you trust him?

 

[ninja]

said I should introspect (not with the word introspect, but he described the word introspect through what he said) and figure out the change myself.

So what did he actually say? He may not have been meaning for you introspect, in other words and most probably his definition of introspect may not match yours.

The heart operation analogy is interesting, albeit distressing. It is not as if he can impart change onto you, it has to make sense to you so that you can make the changes within yourself. In this way, I would wonder whether what he views as 'feedback' from you is rather you searching for clarification so that you know how to apply the changes within yourself. Maybe as an experiment try softening your facial expressions a bit when asking for clarification from him. Do you think he lacks rigor and precision in his thought? Do you have common interests?

The overintellectualization argument may have merit but by the same token it may take that high of a degree of intellectual precision in order to reach authentic feeling, because precision is where safety can be accessed. In my opinion, his job at first is to modify the way he works to help you.