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I think part of the problem for me is that both of the boyfriends I have had have seemed to separate love from sex.

They would enjoy being seen with me on their arm etc. but I have caught them both looking at very erotic, what I personally consider slightly abusive, videos of girls and both said 'but these aren't the sort of girls I would want to date'. I think I just want to meet a guy that sees me as a whole image of beauty and accepts my flaws, and that views girls as people not objects.


PS. I have had two therapists in the past but I agree that it might be worth giving it another shot. I do find therapy awfully embarassing and uncomfortable though. I think I have treated both of my therapists like mothers which I don't really think is healthy either.

Perhaps the problem is that you DON'T separate love from sex. Love is supposed to be meaningful and with people who you legitimately like as people, but just because a guy is sexually attracted to you, doesnt mean he loves you. I wouldn't attempt to guess, i'm just saying perhaps...

Also, I am not sure what kinds of videos you're talking about. Almost all porn is a little degrading to the female stars, to degrees. I am not sure but I think lots of guys watch porn that is perhaps a LITTLE degrading. If its rape/sadism/bondage type fantasies, thats a little different, and is a possible indicator of other stuff going on.

I think almost all women deal with this at least a little bit though. Guys, even really nice guys, do objectify women in some ways, it doesnt mean they don't respect women in general, as long as they aren't hurting or taking advantage of anyone, it might just be a normal healthy expression of libido, if they are just watching porn for instance.
 
'What is the congruous coping skill that you have, and what issue is it an adaptation to dealing with for both of you? So how do you need to grow?'

Yeah, it's pretty cryptic as is, huh?

The first thing about relationships is that we fall in love ONLY with people who are exactly as screwed up as we are, with the same issues… only we habitually deal with them in opposite ways. If you can see this pattern, you can often find ways out. I’ll give a couple of examples so you can start to get the pattern.
Ok, having the same issue but opposite ways of dealing with it means that, for example, my husband (H) and I both have a problem with anger. He feels and expresses anger a lot – when he was young he was a brawler, he’ll habitually turn almost any negative feeling (fatigue, irritation etc.) into anger. While he doesn’t get into fights any more, he does behave in angry and intimidating ways regularly. I never express anger. I barely even feel it I am so good at repressing it. When I try to talk about it I go all gooshy and cry and look weak. Or if I do manage to stay composed, I just don’t seem angry. Weird huh? So this is a problem, because he can’t know when he hurts my feelings or does something that makes me mad, and I can’t tell what he’s feeling when he’s feeling bad, and I just want to get away. Bad bad dynamic, as you can tell. So we both have problems with anger, and I retreat from it and he wears it like a parka. The solution is to develop the skills to talk about how we are feeling and what we need. More on that, after the examples.

Here is another example: I had a friend in a relationship where both of them had issues with control/confidence. She was impossibly passive, indecisive, couldn’t make decisions or follow through on things. She was just wishy-washy to the extreme because she was uncomfortable about being in charge of her life. He was also uncomfortable being in charge of his life, but compensated in the opposite way – he was controlling to the extreme. He wanted her to do what he wanted her to do when he wanted her to do it. He didn’t want her to talk on the phone, or go out, or decide what was for dinner. And it was comfortable for a while… (a perfect fit, right?) but then after not having to make her own decisions for a while she got rested up and thought it would be nice to decide some things for herself. And he freaked out! Of course it could happen the other way too, he gets rested up enough from being in charge and then doesn’t want to make the decisions, and the SHE freaks out! Ideally, of course, they should both get better and move toward each other at the same pace, so she gets interested in making more decisions just as he is getting tired of making them all and no one freaks out. But that hardly ever happens.

Here is a third example. Both H and I have “martyr” scripts – they go more or less like this: “I work so hard, and never ask anyone for help. No one thinks to ask me if I need help, they just expect me to be there for them. And when I do ask for help, no one is willing to help me. It is so unfair. No one appreciates me, or what I do. I work my tail off and no one even says ‘thank you’ or notices my efforts.” I respond to this by shutting down emotionally, getting resentful and working harder and being super effective – then collapsing. He responds to this by ceasing to do the work in question, getting angry and being less effective and less effective and just keeping going. An ugly ugly dynamic. The martyr thing is truly poisonous for any relationship. So we both have issues about our effort being appreciated. I feel resentment and produce notable results (which I get no satisfaction from.) He feels resentment and anger and spins his wheels and gets exhausted (which is also not too satisfactory.) Again, an ugly dynamic. The solution here is, pretty simple to say, and not so easy to do. We each have to learn how to communicate our appreciation of the other in a way the other person “gets” and then we both have to learn how to pace our work in healthy ways that balance effort and achievement. And we both have to be very very very committed to NOT thinking the martyr script – because it is the equivalent of putting on “poop colored glasses” (the opposite of “rose colored glasses.”)

It is generally a lot easier to recognize this pattern in our friends’ relationships than it is in our own. Trust me, its there. It is kind of hard to believe (or it was for me, I’m perfect after all J.) But once accepted, things can change for the better.

The thing about each of these patterns is that at their roots are basic needs that all people have. I started out being surprisingly bad at identifying “needs” I am a bit better, although I still look up “basic human needs” lists on the internet regularly to remind me what they are. Here are a few categories (in italics) and examples: Physical needs: Air, Food, Movement, Touch, Rest, Sexual Expression, etc. Play/Spiritual Communion: Beauty, Harmony, Inspiration, Order, etc. Interdependence: Acceptance, Closeness, Emotional Safety, Honesty, Love, Trust, Understanding, etc.

These are important to identify because once we know what the needs of each person is, it becomes possible to identify practical ways to meet the need. So putting the things together we can identify a pattern of conflict – where we both have opposite ways of dealing with the same issues – then talk about what our individual needs are, that are not being met, and then figure out ways to meet our own needs, and (hopefully) contribute to meeting each others’ needs too.

So for H and I the trick with the anger turns out to be noticing little day to day irritations and worries and not letting them build up. When we get out of the habit of thinking “minimizing” thoughts “Oh that’s ok, I’ll just….” Then we can notice what we each need. We each try to stop ignoring how we feel/what we need (as our parents taught us to) and instead practice noticing our own needs and trying to take care of our own needs and giving the other person the opportunity to respond to them (neither of us read minds, after all.) All without demanding that the other person take care of us. I know, I know, this sounds crazy right? (or maybe not, I don’t know J.) Identifying and eliminating the martyr script has helped ENORMOUSLY. My friend and her husband never did get their dynamic figured out and eventually she left him. L.

The whole thing is complicated by the fact that our subconscious (for lack of a better term) is working like mad to give us opportunities to heal emotional wounds that we got from our parents... hence the question about your father - most young women are working out "daddy issues." It is spooky how exactly the partner we choose will re-create the dynamics we had with our parents (the off again/on again pattern of attraction with boyfriends is a pretty good example.)

Ok, enough for now!
 
The bottom line for me, and what I wish I had taken more to heart as a young person is this: when people say that your partner should be your best friend - they MEAN like, really actually Your Best Friend.

And as a follow up to that - that it is only possible for another person to be your best friend if you are your own best friend. So: another person can only treat you as well as you treat yourself. This makes it very useful to reflect on the limitations we find our relationships having repeatedly - they can be clues about weaknesses in our relationships to ourselves. If you don't have compassion for yourself in a certain area - other people won't have compassion for you in that area. If you don't appreciate your work, neither will others. Kind of infuriating, but it seems to be true most of the time.

If you want to have good healthy relationships, become the most emotionally healthy person you can be.

I think loner has written a VERY good description of how parents should treat LITTLE kids - and the relationship has to change as they develop - so as children learn/acquire the ability to regulate themselves and deal effectively with the world (which would be SO much easier if they would only develop in a straight line forward at a constant rate, instead of speeding up, and slowing down, and regressing, and then jumping ahead again...:eek:) a parent's job is to be "a friend of virtue." That is to support/love them unconditionally while encouraging and even demanding that they develop their new capacities and learn to cope with the world on their own. To become "virtuoso's" at life. So approval/disapproval of behavior - more and more as children mature - is required for good parenting. Loner is entirely right that this needs to be based on the needs of the child - and not on the neuroses or issues of the parents. So the thing gets complicated when imperfect people try to have kids - even very good ones.:O_o::D

Re: the question about relationships with one's mother when one is an adult: One of my daughters (foster, I "inherited" her when she was 15) is 23. We are close. She calls and we talk about her life/career/work/marriage/relationships with the rest of her/our family. She sometimes asks for advice. Other times she just wants to run something by me. This summer we had a bunch of discussions about dealing with money. Last summer... the topic of the month was in-laws. We also just like to visit and compare notes about life. And do fun stuff. And read Harry Potter. And make cookies. And talk food. And watch movies. I think she is a great daughter. She tells me I am a good mom. So I guess we are doing something right:happy::inlove:. I don't know if this answers your question really?

I agree with loner that having a relationship that was like the relationship between a parent and a small child would be very very unhealthy. But as young people mature and the relationship shifts - the difference lessens (never to go away - but less). So a good relationship should be a "friendship of virtue." Where both people in it love and value each other for who they are, and are committed to supporting the other person becoming the best "them" they can be. The very best friends are the ones who would be willing to support the "best" you, even in the face of opposition from the fearful and resistant and unhealthy parts of you. That takes courage and commitment.

I hope this is making any sense... I am TIRED tonight...
 
Eleanor - Thank you for your messages :D one point I really want to pick up on is anger.
Firstly, for me, it is has taken 21 years just to recognise myself when I am getting angry. I think part of this has to do with different people, different genders perhaps, expressing anger in different ways. It's only recently that I've started to notice my tears really being 'angry tears' and that when I start shaking it is actually me getting very angry, as opposed to upset or frightened.
One thing that triggers this, is it becoming clear that I guy doesn't fit the bill of what I am looking for with regards to love and respect. The boyfriend I've just finished with once told me that he would never find me as beautiful as his childhood crush. This set me off shaking a little bit. When he then went on to admit he'd watched a video since we'd got together, I asked to see it and the girl looked like his childhood crush, the complete opposite of me and the other girlfriend he's had. I wasn't too upset as I would personally say that neither me nor the girl in the video had a better figure or style, just completely different. In the way Cinderella and Belle and Princess Jasmine are all different (a bit of a childish reference, but it expresses what I mean well). However the girl in the video went on about how she doesn't have stretch marks, and I have a couple from where I grew quickly and this really set me off.
The thing with this guy was that when he got angry he would go quiet, where as I think I am more the sort to go round shouting about it and maybe make too much of a fuss.

You also spoke of sort of 'improving at the same rate' and this has definitely been an issue. I don't think either of us were quite ready for a relationship at the start, and I think this has led to an imbalance. We had a break pretty much half way through the relationship and when we got back together we discussed what we had been fantasising about. He said mainly me but he tried not to and just focus on the concept of making love to a beautiful woman, and it was weird because mine was kind of the other way round, mainly him but also making love to a guy who really loved me. I think my point is that both of these fantasies are variable to a degree - there is no woman who is perfectly beautiful, and there is no guy who can be 'perfectly' in love - so it is hard to know where to drawn the line with these fantasies. I think that how attractive a woman is does depend on confidence and that this confidence can increase if she is loved. But for a guy to love a woman he must find her attractive. I know I am reading far too much into things but it's kind of like a chicken/egg scenario I can't quite get my head around :alien:

Loner - Thank you for your response, I'm hoping I've made it a bit clearer in my response to Eleanor, why I have a bit of a problem with these videos. I think that if I was with a funloving guy who was often up for making love to me, and once in a while openly watched it, if say I was out of town or he was larking around with mates, then I wouldn't have such a problem. I am, personally, very against the industry as obviously not wanting to turn to my parents for money, I have come into some financial difficulties where that sort of occupation seemed to be one of my few options. Basically, at the same time as feeling a bit jealous, I really feel for those girls in the videos, which is a weird combination of emotions. I know there is always going to be someone out and about who is a bit 'fitter' or 'fertile' as it were, and I have no problem with a guy looking at them and objectifying them a bit like that. But I would want it to be a case of him, even as I got older and wrinklier, finding me more fundamentally beautiful inside and out, and not particularly wishing to watch videos of these women etc. I am starting to wonder though if I am being unrealistic :(

Both of you have mentioned that parental and romantic relationships being different, and I think for me it is sort of like the yinyang symbol. With romantic relationships, and Eleanor you mentioned this, u can be opposites and compliment each others weaknesses, making u fit together, but possibly in a bit of an unhealthy way. I feel it is a bit like that yinyang symbol, when what I should be looking for, is someone with maybe similar weaknesses or similar ways of dealing with things, that I can live alongside, as Loner described enjoying their company and their energy and helping them out emotionally from time to time. I'm not saying I don't want my relationships to be as deep, in fact I think this healthier attitude might allow me to get closer to people, if that makes any sense?

x
 
PS. Eleanor your daughter sounds very like me and it sounds like the sort of relationship I long for with my mother. It's just, my mum expects a bit more than that. She wants me to worship the ground she walks upon, always agree with her, accept every invitation to mee t up with her even when I have exams, yet not turn to her for support when I am down/she is busy. Although it brings up emotions and longing within me, it's really great to hear of your relationship with your daughter, to see that I'm not expecting too much or offering too little to my relationship with my mother.
 
I think loner has written a VERY good description of how parents should treat LITTLE kids - and the relationship has to change as they develop

Its all theoretical to me, as my parents didn't do any of that, so I found it interesting to read your thoughts on aspects I might of missed. Thanks.


Sleeping beauty, I get the feeling, based on things you have said, that you perhaps connect some desire for approval or validation to your desire to be viewed as attractive by men. Being attractive is fine, but it is dangerous to want that approval so badly. Its very natural that you would, men and women who have not had good supportive relationships with their parents end up really wanting SOMEONE to tell them they are special and beautiful and good enough, but it is very dangerous to look for that from romantic partners. I could be wrong, thats just the feeling I get about you.


I think you should forget about finding a man for a while and address the issues you have with your parents. You probably could have a good healthy relationship with the right guy now, but I think youd be better off if you just forgot about them and worked on your issues first. You're young, you have plenty of time, there are lots of guys around.

Or, if youre ever in Salt Lake City, I'll take you out :) (picking up traumatized girls on a ptsd website isnt creepy AT ALL is it?) Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood a bit.

On a related note, you said you feel for the women in porn, well its absolutely essential to my fantasy to believe that they are all only in porn because they deeply truly love their jobs, so don't you dare ruin that for me!
 
He he your comment about Salt Lake City made me smile. I have a job interview tomorrow so things are on the up! Not focusing so much on guys like u said. Thanks for all your advice hope to speak again soon :shy:
 
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