Ask a foreigner

[In the weeds]

Is there evidence in the US that having forms of self protection reduces crime or helps when crime is happening?

Yes. A bad guy with a gun can be stopped by a good guy with a gun.
Where guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns.

 

[Movingforward10]

Yes. A bad guy with a gun can be stopped by a good guy with a gun.
Where guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns

Hmmm…and school shootings in countries that allow guns.

 

[gorgonzola]

Yes. A bad guy with a gun can be stopped by a good guy with a gun.
Where guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns.

Evidence from the US is that less than 3% of active mass shootings are stopped by an armed civilian. Also see Uvalde for a fairly recent example of having very many "good guys with guns" doing nothing for far too long while murders take place.

Which makes sense: if you open carry, you're the first target of a mass shooter before they make themselves known. If you concealed carry, then you can make yourself the shooter's #1 target (and possibly law enforcement's #1 target too, as someone with a firearm at an active shooter scene) or you can try to flee the scene.

In the UK handguns were de facto banned following the Dunblane massacre. Since that legislation, only Olympic athletes and outlaws have handguns. No handgun-invloved massacres and the handgun shootings have been both very occasional and generally drug turf related.

 

[In the weeds]

Hmmm…and school shootings in countries that allow guns

Most of those mass shootings occur in "gun-free" zones. Check it out.

 

[In the weeds]

Which makes sense: if you open carry, you're the first target of a mass shooter before they make themselves known

I'm thinking more about a person who's house is being broken in to.

 

[OceanSpray]

Starting a gun rights debate was not my intention

But it’s a very culturally-specific belief which simply doesn’t resonate all that much in other places. It’s not that other places aren’t interested in individual rights, or individual safety, it’s just that there are other interests that carry a lot more significance than they might in the US.

Can you elaborate on this? (Not being snarky, I'm genuinely confused by the supposed idea that only Americans are interested in keeping themselves safe).

Is there evidence in the US that having forms of self protection reduces crime or helps when crime is happening?

Yes. Here is a list., here, and here. But be mindful that when an incident has no heat, no pun intended, it's not going to hit the news the way a mass incident would. So, obviously harder to track. Also, keep in mind that the majority of our gun crime occurs in locations that are specifically supposed to be gun free- our law abiding gun owners follow that rule and criminals are going to be criminals. The vast majority of our gun crime occurs in gang violence in specific cities that have outlawed guns within those city limits. It's the reality here that walking down a street in a small town, you'll have many guns around you but your chances of getting shot are next to nil whereas walking down the street in a city that has banned guns your chances of getting shot whether by accident or intention are exponentially high.

Also see Uvalde for a fairly recent example of having very many "good guys with guns" doing nothing for far too long while murders take place.

Uvalde was an interesting case that can't be summed up in quite that way. Law enforcement with guns is different than civilians with guns. Law enforcement f*cked up here, full stop, no getting around it. Had there been a civilian inside with a gun? Could have been a very different story, we don't know. What we do know is schools are gun free zones so no law abiding civilian had a gun there. Now, there is debate on whether teachers should have guns. That's an extensive debate on its' own that I am not interested in getting into right now because there is too much nuance and a shit ton of what-ifs.

No handgun-invloved massacres and the handgun shootings have been both very occasional and generally drug turf related.

So, this bugs me when it's touted that gun free countries are inherently safer due to their gun bans. Yes, there is less gun crime, obviously, and you can argue that that automatically makes things safer. But with criminals, where there is a will there is a way, how much crime do y'all have that involves knives, machetes, vehicles, etc.? They can be just as many victims in just as short of a time. So the elitism of well we don't have guns-- save it, please. Violence is violence and it's in this world and all we can do is try to protect ourselves from it. Even here, the World Trade Centers? Box cutters and planes. The OKC building? A homemade bomb. You don't have to have a gun to commit insane atrocities.


Now, the whole point of my post was to ask if there is *anything* that can be used as self protection? Because I would like to visit the UK and other places at some point, but I will not go into a city, especially one with known crime, without *something*. I don't personally carry a gun, but I do carry pepper spray and a small knife. Will they prevent every potential attack? Of course not. But maybe it'll help me and that gives me some peace of mind. But from what I hear, things like pepper spray are banned, and I would like to understand why.

 

[Teasel]

Rape alarms are legal.
I don't know of any other protection that people in the UK routinely carry. It just is different here.

I mean seriously the most I can come up with is holding keys in between fingers so it would hurt if you punched someone.

 

[Chris-duck]

Yeah rape alarms are technically the only legal "protection". I personally dont routinely carry anything these days. But if someone was going to there is absolutely no way for the legal system to prove that the deep heat muscle spray you sprayed in their face wasnt for your own pulled muscle. And the massive torch you whacked them with wasnt cos you were going somewhere with poor lighting or camping.

Obviously things-able-to-be-a-weapon cant be banned cos almost anything can be a weapon in a pinch. You only need a plausible story for why you had that on you already anyway. And obv not be the one to attack first cos then you intended to use it as a weapon instead of heat of the moment. So yeh.. big torches and deep heat spray are the main ones i see around.

 

[Sideways]

I'm genuinely confused by the supposed idea that only Americans are interested in keeping themselves safe.

Not at all what I said.

This is what I said:

It’s not that other places aren’t interested in individual rights, or individual safety, it’s just that there are other interests that carry a lot more significance than they might in the US.

It’s interesting to me that what I said was read as “only Americans are interested in keeping themselves safe.”

But..not interesting enough for me to dragged into the rubbish this has quickly descended into.

 

[Sideways]

Mod Note:
If this discussion descends further into a debate about the pros and cons of guns rights, it will be shut down.

We don’t do American politics debates in the Socials on this forum - any benefit had by those sorts of discussions are far outweighed by the dysfunction and dysregulation they cause.

If you need to vent, you can take it to your Trauma Diary, or the countless other internet forums where those sorts of discussions are welcome and appropriate.

 

[gorgonzola]

Because I would like to visit the UK and other places at some point, but I will not go into a city

A rural-only UK visit eh? Let's see... Stonehenge, Ironbridge probably counts, the café at Lizard Point surely does, then there's the Munroes for running up and down, and I'm rather fond of Alderley Edge myself (the Edge, not the village). Bakewell for the Bakewell tarts I'd hope would be rural enough.

 

[Movingforward10]

Now, the whole point of my post was to ask if there is *anything* that can be used as self protection? Because I would like to visit the UK and other places at some point, but I will not go into a city, especially one with known crime, without *something*. I don't personally carry a gun, but I do carry pepper spray and a small knife. Will they prevent every potential attack? Of course not. But maybe it'll help me and that gives me some peace of mind. But from what I hear, things like pepper spray are banned, and I would like to understand why.

I think this is where having cultural differences comes in. It is a cultural difference to have a sense of carrying a weapon to feel safe, in my opinion.
I live in a city in the UK. And I feel safe (when not triggered or at night on my own). I have been to big cities in the US (LA, NYC, SF) and have felt safe without a weapon. So, for me, when I haven't felt safe it not been in my mind that having a weapon would make me feel safer.

So, cultural difference is the reason?

If it's putting you off visiting, what would make you feel safer? Looking up the crime rates? (Which have gone down in London). Biggest thing to fear is phone snatching in the tourist areas.
Like G has said: so many lovely rural areas to visit, with hundreds of things to see and do (castles, old villages, walking, beaches, lakes, etc etc)