General Boundaries

[Bilby]

I'm actually having a lot of trouble with this at the moment - I've read a lot here about it, and I feel that we have had some boundaries in place in the past, but they seem to have fallen by the wayside and any suggestion by me to re-establish these, or to at least get a conversation going about them so that we can discuss them, is met with refusal and anger.

It's hard, as I don't feel as though I'm being heard and anything I feel, let alone say, gets the same response. I've honestly given up trying to talk about how I feel or to share anything now.

 

[safenow]

I've honestly given up trying to talk about how I feel or to share anything now.

Gosh, Bilby. I'm so sorry things are at that point for you. I hope you are able to find a way to show him that you deserve respect.

I had to get away from people, all people who treated me that way. The only way for me to stay sane, and to have any peace at all was stay away from toxic people. I grew up with toxic people and had to live with them for too long, ignoring my own needs and health. I hate to see others have to put up with that type of thing.

Bless your heart. I hope you can get safe and stay safe.

 

[Bilby]

Thanks for your reply, safenow.

I have to point out that in all fairness, I'm not a saint. I've made mistakes too. There are two of us in this relationship and I think we are both at fault. That said, I've been very hurt by some recent events and I feel that in order to move forward, discussing our boundaries is a really good starting point. Unfortunately he doesn't agree. It's difficult though, because of that, that I feel I am having to deal with certain situations/scenarios that may not be all that great for me.

 

[safenow]

I'm not a saint. I've made mistakes too.

Oh my goodness. Another human. Me too.

 

[Bilby]

Haha, yes :) I just think I have to be fair and accept my part in things, you know?

 

[safenow]

Bilby, boundaries are so important. When he won't even discuss them, it means he has no respect for you. That is not cool, in my humble opinion. PTSD or not, that just isn't the type of person you want to be married to. You will end up with zero self-esteem, and allow things that might hurt you emotionally or even physically for years afterwards.

Many years ago, before I knew I had PTSD, I was married to a marine who had PTSD. When I first met him, he was a kind, caring, gentle man. He was good to me and my little girl. She loved him very much, and we were happy until something triggered him.

I had two rules in life back then. 1) No violence. 2) protect my virtue.

Then, his PTSD kicked in. He started to self medicate with alcohol. He was a mean drunk. He changed. When we would go to shoot pool, he would accuse me of flirting with the men there. I wasn't, but he imagined I was, so soon we stopped going. I had a lot of house plants, and he was even jealous of them. One day he ripped the big one in the living room to pieces. Then tossed the pot through the large plate glass window. One night, he came in while I was reading my bible. He grabbed it out of my hands and told me I loved it more than him. I got my daughter and left the house for a little while.

When I got back, the house was in shambles. He had tossed the furniture and ripped the stuffing out of some furniture. My large scissors were sticking into the wall and he was gone. I packed some clothes and we left again. I took us to the mountains so I could figure out what to do. Because of my daughter, we came back out of the mountains and went back home.

When we got back he had sobered up, and calmed down. He told me how sorry he was, and he'd not drink any more. I believed him. Life went along pretty good for a short while, then, one day a friend of his came over. My husband wasn't home, but the guy said he wanted to wait. So I left him in the living room watching some television and I went about finishing my chores. As I was putting away the laundry in my bedroom, this guy came in. He pushed me onto the bed, and tried to rape me. I managed to get away from him and ran into the living room. I got the baseball bat and told him if he came near me I'd bash his skull in. He laughed, but he left.

That night, when my husband got home, I told him what had happened. He accused me of enticing the guy to come into the bedroom. He said his friend had told him all about it. AT that point, I knew I couldn't stay. I no longer felt safe. If he wouldn't even protect me from his friends, and protect my virtue, I wanted nothing more to do with him. So I grabbed my daughter again and left.

Bilby, he might not want to hear it, but you need to tell him anyway what your breaking point is. Then, stand by it. Don't accept it if he breaks it. And he might just test you to see if you mean it. Please, for your own sake, stay safe.

Off my soap box now.

 

[jmni]

What are "good" examples of boundaries?

How about you are sick of fighting. You or your partner raise their voice when they get angry. So you tell them I've noticed that when we argue and raise our voices. So I am not going to communicate anymore if you raise your voice. If I raise my voice feel free to do the same.

What if, in a calm time, attempting to bring up boundaries is a trigger ("your trying to control me", "you are thinking of ways to make me the bad guy") - or am I bringing them up the wrong way or not using a "good" example?

Both of those things are accusatory so it might not be a trigger. I think it's just antagonizing. It kind of sounds like you're mind reading the other person. Because you really know that they are trying to control you or make you out to be the bad guy. Maybe you just feel that way. But if it does get to the point to that's how you feel I would say that it's a good indication you are already immersed in something toxic and at a loss. So you would know it's time to quit.

What if a boundary is crossed?

Some people will intentionally cross your boundaries. If you are not in a relationship with them you can set up boundaries to see if they'll cross them and what they'll do. Then if they do it you can silently judge them and walk away. Let's say your SO that you actually care about or someone you have to deal with does crosses a boundary like voice raising. Then you could say 'I've asked you not to raise your voice and told you I wont communicate with you if you do. All I ask is that you think about what we've discussed. There's no point in continuing to talk if we are going to yell about it.' Then walk away. Come back to it later.

These are just ideas to try. But if you do let me know what happens.

 

[dayglo]

I was finally able to set some boundaries....

Our last blow-out was the night of the big storm in the northeast. (One stressor was the possibility that we would lose power). So I couldn't leave the house or anything. I (unobtrusively) wrote down some of the hateful, malicious, ridiculous things she would say to me. And wow, she is like an angry drunk when she has an episode.

In the past, the next day, when she was feeling remorse, I would try to talk to her about what happened and try to set boundaries but it would never work as I guess she was too "close" to the trigger. I waited two days and pulled out my notes (I made a copy just-in-case she would rip up my notes).

Anyway, I asked her gently about what I should do when she gets like this. Since she doesn't even remember (or believe) that she said those things, I used my notes since it contained direct quotes. She got even more upset and said that she doesn't understand why I still love her and that she's not worthy of me. ("I don't deserve you", "I should just leave" "Why do you still love me when I act like this". More on this later)

Anyway, I asked *HER* what I should do once the verbal attacks "cross the line", get vicious and personal, since I did not want to get that hurt again. "We" finally agreed that the best thing to do is for me to leave the house with my son. So now at at least we have an agreed-upon boundary and action item. And its one that she agreed to so it doesn't seem one sided. And now during the next episode I can say something like "I'm doing what you told me to do, which is to leave the house"

I do wish I did more preparation for
a) finding the best time to segue into a boundary or constructive talk (I know it's different for each individual, but there must be a better way than trial-and error
b) somehow to utilize better that remorse and guilt time in a positive way
c) better prepare for exactly what to say during that time

Also d) I'm also not 100% sure how to "warn" her that she's crossing the line, and exactly what to say when I decide the boundary has been crossed.

I'm hoping for the best but preparing (and expecting) the worst (which is that this boundary thing doesn't work). Thanks everybody and I will let you know how it goes.

 

[jmni]

hi, dayglo.

I think it's great that you had this success. Now you have to really stick to it. For me the tough part is how maddening/crazy-making the things they say or do can be. You have to treat yourself as an observer and refuse to let her "f--- with you."

Some things bugged me.

Anyway, I asked *HER* what I should do once the verbal attacks "cross the line", get vicious and personal, since I did not want to get that hurt again

It sounds like she has a lot of control.

And its one that she agreed to so it doesn't seem one sided.

as long as the boundary is practical I don't think you have to worry about agreeing upon it.

For example you don't have to be "to nice." You could say if you speak to me like this I am going to leave the house with our son. He doesn't need to watch this either. Hopefully you will get to the point where you don't have to leave your own home.

 

[Eleanor]

Dayglo - it sounds like a good start! I would caution you to be very careful with language - "I'm doing what YOU decided" sends a very different message than "I'm doing what WE agreed to." I wouldn't worry about setting exact parameters for deciding when she is triggered. YOU know. I mean you don't have an interest in disrupting your life and your son's life to leave the house, right? You don't have to justify your leaving (she won't "hear" it anyway) just say clearly that the way she is speaking to you is unacceptable and you are leaving, as you both agreed, and that you will be happy to talk to her when she is feeling better/calmer.

As a supporter you get to deal with your own issues in a particularly intense way too. Oh Joy.:eek:

The fact that she doesn't remember *should* be disturbing to her. Can you discretely, get video of her outburst? Nothing like a little evidence to solve a disagreement about the facts. If she is in total denial that anything DID happen, even though she cannot remember that is a sign of a character flaw beyond PTSD IMHO. Scrupulous honesty makes PTSD much more workable.

I am concerned about the issue of her being "controlling" - if she really is trying to control you that is a major warning sign of abuse (PTSD sufferers can be abusers even though most are not) and you have a child in the home to worry about. His safety and security have to be your first priorities. It sounds like he has seen a lot of disturbing stuff - do you have him working with a therapist? How does she treat him?

 

[The Albatross]

I'm not as convinced that trying to control is a major warning sign of abuse. It is though a sign of manipulation. People don't like to change or be called out on their behaviors, they will fight for the status quo. Obviously this track worked for her in the past. Lord knows I've said some or most of those things to my spouse early on as well.

Firmly setting the boundary is all that is necessary to upset her apple cart. She is retaliating to a large degree because what has "worked in the past" isn't working now. Something has changed and change for many of us (me as well) is fear inducing.

Continue to be consistent and in lucid moments find ways to reinforce loving support but when necessary restate the boundary and that the behavior is non negotiable. There will be a consequence to her actions. You are her partner, not her parent correct, but you are no longer willing to be a target for her behaviors. Life partnerships are 50/50 and she needs to step up.

 

[The Albatross]

There are many good books on boundary setting. I am a "sufferer". I can say that the effort in my own marriage has been worth it. I know it is not easy. I have employed boundary setting with the people in my life reasonably successfully. And my husband has boundaries with me. It has been hard to communicate needs outside of the "old cycle"... we are both learning but it does improve.