Relationship Christmas Wish List – Need Help!

[catjudo]

Recovery form alcoholism and PTSD can very well be similar in nature.

Nope, sorry, you're just plain wrong. Perhaps some of the 12 steps of AA can very loosely be applied to how a person with PTSD might attempt to make amends for the way they sometimes allow the symptoms of their PTSD to affect those around them. But the same can be said for anyone...those 12 steps can be beneficial to anyone. But make no mistake about it, using those 12 steps is in no way a plan to recovering from PTSD. As others have posted, there is SO much more involved in recovering (as much as one can) from PTSD.

I myself am depressed these days and it is affecting others in my family. My sufferer pointed this out to me tonight, I am hurting my daughter because I am tired and lost in the turmoil of my reationship with my sufferer. I’m at my wits end and have lost the will give love to my daughter, especially in the presence of my sufferer for some reason. One day my sufferer will need to acknowledge her roll in this and if she can fix it, she will feel the uplifting benefit it will have on her emotional health and progress her recovery)

Umm, I hear you saying you're depressed and hurting your daughter. Then I hear you saying your sufferer needs to acknowledge her role in this to feel better. Nowhere do I see/hear you acknowledging your share of responsibility, being accountable for how you're affecting your daughter or saying what you're going to actively do to change the situation. Ultimately you're responsible for your own actions. If you're hurting your daughter, only you can fix it. It's much easier to sit around telling your sufferer what she needs to do than taking inventory of your own actions and trying to fix what is actually within your own control.

 

[ISupportHer]

There also was an older thread I remembered when I read this. "PTSD and the 12 Step Program" I think. It was not nearly as detailed but I thought I'd mention it.

ISH

 

[ISupportHer]

I guess one thing I think of as I read all this is that I look for help or insight or anything that will help me and sometimes find a little nugget in unusual places such as a song lyric. So what I mean is that I don't really think that the 12 step program can necessarily be applied, step by step, to PTSD, or in my case the anxieties and uncertainty I feel, there ARE some points I can learn from and try to apply to my life. Yet maybe someone else CAN correlate it more to THEIR life, and if so, that's fine with me.

The other thing is that debate is good. It is my hope is that as we debate points in this or any other thread, that we remember that we all are here for the common reason. PTSD, and it is the PTSD that is the enemy.

ISH

 

[catjudo]

I think this may be the thread that others have referred to.

[DLMURL]http://www.ptsdforum.org/c/threads/12-steps-for-ptsd-my-intro.9237/[/DLMURL]

As I read it, I found one persons account, in particular, to seem really relevant and speak from experience.

The 12 steps works wonders for many people. For that I'm truly glad for them and the hard work they put into their recovery.

I attended AA for years, even though I was not an alcoholic. I felt that I was in turmoil and I met a few other people like me, mainly woman, who as it turned out, had been severely abused.

...this obviously was not helping me.

I crashed and finally got into therapy. After the programming in AA that I was selfish, egotistic, character flawed and out of control..........which I wasn't any of these mind you........I was just in a ton of pain. WEll, they programmed me to think of myself as more flawed and deserving of bad treatment!

It really did a ton of damage to me.

The first thing my therapist said was, "Mental illness is NOT a character flaw. AA addresses people who have serious character flaws, some may even have mental illness.......but the way to address emotional pain is to work through it.........not pass it off as turning it over to a higher power. The pain does not usually go away that way."

 

[Tinyflame]

Yes, I agree, I think everyone should tap into and apply what has a positive influence for them, in particular healthy coping strategies.

I was raised 'surrounded' as it were, by the principles of living the 12 steps (without even knowing it); unfortunately it never prevented my ptsd nor 'cured' my ptsd afterwards. However, principles such as Live and let live, One day at a time, Let go and let (God) etc, remain invaluable to me in many respects on a day-to-day basis.

I think however for myself you anni have also helped me to see (thru your posts for many months), how absolutely true it is how 'we' have a tendency to feel we have to justify that we are on the planet, as you say, or breathing. I think it is reflected in my own decisions (sometimes), in 'forgetting' to eat (for yourself- not for others), being unaware of physical pain, etc. However, no matter what choices we make, we shouldn't feel 'death to us' is the (oftentimes only) option- I noticed over 2/3 of sufferers in the other poll have attempted suicide at least once. Just as you mentioned anni, just because you 'chose' your husband does not make you 'deserving' of what HE did to you- it is not your fault. Similarly, in my case much of my guilt and shame came from how I tried (or have tried) to cope with what I could not- not punishable by death, however, if you know what I mean. I think that you (and your T) are absolutely right: along with the rest there is such lack of self-worth and self esteem it is unbelievable what a toll it takes on you- like a "soul-hole", as it were. So really, it's like a vicious circle.

Ironically enough, I think also (it has been my experience) that the very reason these traumas have been so deleterious to us is that we have a conscience, by and large have not wanted to hurt or burden anyone, have been sensitive to our own pain and others, and the pain we potentially would cause others directly or indirectly because of it, now, and even the 'burden' of existing and asking for help. And the expectation that help will not come- that's been our experience, and oftentimes nothing we have 'tried' has worked, hence we feel like 'damaged goods'.

Perhaps a 12 step program is a useful adjunct, though I fear it alone would primarily not address the traumas nor provide closure to them.

I have no problem with wanting to make amends, etc, and doing so, but I would really prefer getting to the point where I cause less that I have to make amends for, and can live with a relative peace, bringing a bit of joy to others as well.

 

[anni]

Sigh. Exactly.

 

[Meli]

I'd like to give my opinion here, as an Atheist raised in a strict Protestant Christian home. After a feverish, negative, and unhealthy discussion on the topic of carer/sufferer posting on each other's threads, I still feel it is appropriate to state my opinion here. I am personally the subject of this post, and he has addressed me directly.

I also want to say that I am grateful for any compassionate thought or effort that my carer puts into my recovery.

I have to say that I disagree, in whole, to the PTSD/Alcoholism analogy. Although trauma is sometimes the cause of alcoholism, they are not one in the same by any means. The confidence that is achieved in "beating" alcoholism (that is to say "Sober for one year, two years, etc.) is not present in PTSD so easily. We do not "beat" PTSD... period. It is a part of our lives forever.

The religious guidelines contained in the AA 12 step program, to me personally, are the basics of any Sunday School program; let God into your life, ask for forgiveness of your sins, give all your troubles to God in prayer, and be kind to others. It is comforting to believe in a higher power, as I very well know through speaking with my mother, but PTSD is a mental illness; not a sin. My mother (an actual Sunday School teacher) and I have had many discussions about this process of "being an active Christian" as it pertains to my father's actions (my original abuser). Am I to make amends with my father, or apologize for "physically malfunctioning" brain chemestry and/or processes? Because I won't.

Spirituality does help many get through a plethora of life's struggles, such as PTSD and Alcoholism. But I have to agree that admitting to "faulty thinking", as advised in the "guilt" context of the 12 step program, is mere conjecture when applied to the anxiety disorders and places sole guilt on the sufferer. Guilt placed on the sufferer is extremely damaging, and actually may re-traumatize the sufferer in the end.

My carer wanted to know what steps in the AA program I had achieved. I'm acknowledging that he's only trying to help, and to frame this very confusing and frustrating disorder in his mind, but I have to say his anology angered me. I began to feel guilt projected onto my personality as he asked about each step. He's trying to understand my triggers and symptoms, and find a way to gauge my recovery that he can understand.

Although I have obtained control over one set of triggers; the sexual abuse perpetrated by Danny Fikes, and the violent and gorey loss of my child conceived during that experience; there are literally thousands of triggers and symptoms that are still out of my control. I have suffered 5 very separate traumas. In an attempt to sort out a recovery plan, I am only including those experiences that are defined by the DSM. Add to that, all the simple abuse and destructive behavior over the course of a quarter of a century, and PTSD becomes a hugely more complex condition than alcoholism alone. Where the smell, sight, or mention of alcohol can trigger an alcoholic; and I do have empathy for that; there are seemingly and completely unrelated triggers regarding PTSD. For example; a blob of jelly that falls off my knife, and hits the counter, will still trigger an "intrusion" for me (something that is NOT present in alcoholism). Grape jelly, a tastey sandwich ingredient, becomes a horrifying representation of a life threatened, a bloody mess, and a deceased baby. I literally see the blob of jelly as a large blood clot, and suffer physical symptoms from it. The 12 steps of AA will not stop that from happening, therefore cannot be applied.

The only two things that I can correlate in regards to PTSD and AA are;

Realizing that there is a problem IS the first step to recovery. That is in NO way placing personal blame (as difined by "character defect") on the sufferer in contrast though.

Living one's life either by spiritual or generally ethical guidelines IS honorable, and can benefit both the PTSD and Alcoholism sufferer.

In closing, I appreciate the effort in trying to find a logical plan for my recovery, but I have to say that AA does not apply to PTSD.

I hope I have conducted myself appropriately here...
~Meli

 

[anni]

You conducted yourself quite approptiately and succintly too! :)

There are no threads in this area off limits to anyone, really, withing the bounds of what's being discussed. When we stray too far afield, some patient mod merely moves something elsewhere, where it is more relevant hence easier to follow.

Yes- plain old guilt/self worth seems to be precluding this approach from being effective for at least some sufferers. It's kind of nice we at least have the stuffing to be able to say so, without feeling guilty for that also. That sounds funny enough to have made me smile but it's also true.

 

[EF2511]

Nope, sorry, you're just plain wrong. Perhaps some of the 12 steps of AA can very loosely be applied to how a person with PTSD might attempt to make amends for the way they sometimes allow the symptoms of their PTSD to affect those around them. But the same can be said for anyone...those 12 steps can be beneficial to anyone. But make no mistake about it, using those 12 steps is in no way a plan to recovering from PTSD. As others have posted, there is SO much more involved in recovering (as much as one can) from PTSD.



Umm, I hear you saying you're depressed and hurting your daughter. Then I hear you saying your sufferer needs to acknowledge her role in this to feel better. Nowhere do I see/hear you acknowledging your share of responsibility, being accountable for how you're affecting your daughter or saying what you're going to actively do to change the situation. Ultimately you're responsible for your own actions. If you're hurting your daughter, only you can fix it. It's much easier to sit around telling your sufferer what she needs to do than taking inventory of your own actions and trying to fix what is actually within your own control.

Catjudo,

I talked to my daughter last night... again today and spent the day with her. I absolutely 100% take responsabilitiy for my actions but this is a forum for PTSD and i was just trying to square peg / round hole the subject of 12 steps to PTSD. I also talked to her about my sufferer and why she hears us fight a lot and thought it was time to stop hiding it from her.

All I really meant in my original post is where I mentioned it was I can see the symptoms similarly. Recovery has steps in common with many things, not just with alcoholism or PTSD... I perticularly don't like AA. Treatment is definately different. But we do go down a similar road, make sense?

The most important part of this TO ME is that it absolutly helps me keep a perspective that allows me to get over the damage done when my sufferer's actions make me feel defensive or personally attacked. And when i'm not those things things I am able to help her sooner and better.

I completly understand that no one but the sufferer can know what is going on with them and it is not so simple... to even offer sympathy can have negative unwanted effects. As well as if someone who does not have PTSD suggests they even seem to know can also be hurtful. I appologize to anyone who may have thought that. Alcoholism is no way comparable to PTSD IMHO.

Merry Christmas all!

 

[Meli]

You conducted yourself quite approptiately and succintly too! :)

Yes- plain old guilt/self worth seems to be precluding this approach from being effective for at least some sufferers. It's kind of nice we at least have the stuffing to be able to say so, without feeling guilty for that also. That sounds funny enough to have made me smile but it's also true.

Hee hee! Thanks Anni,

I worry a great deal about acting inappropriately, and quite frankly, defending self-blame has taken on a humorous context here. That is funny; feeling guilty about saying we shouldn't be made to feel guilty.

Drives it home, doesn't it? Gotta love irony. :p
~Meli

 

[seedling]

You will probably always be the subject of his posts, though.;) But maybe not always addressed directly.

 

[anni]

Hee also! I kind of figured you would not mind me giggiling a little there- and know it wasn't quite poking fun at your core, you know? :) Just having a laugh with someone who is clearly bright enough to share the whole thing.

Guilt is awful, that's all- I just felt it from what you said- and of course everyone is SO free here to say what they like, where they like( well, with exceptions but I don't fit in any of those specifics here, I don't think) I sometimes feel like I'm tip-toing into a thread that's already begun with some long discussions, almost like a guilty intruder- wierd where the head goes. :)

Athiest or no- at the very least Christmas has come to symbolize Peace- so do hope you have some today- it sounds like it's much needed. BTW- I get addressed indirectly also- it's been shattering-my solution right or wrong, from the sound, WISE advice of someone sound and wise ( ahem- not my own head which is neither at the moment ) is to just don't go there. I'm going to listen to my sound, wise friend this time.

Merry Peaceful Christmas all. :)